The State of Screen readers in macOS

I find that using Tab, Shift-Tab and other browser navigation commands rather than VoiceOver commands makes amazon.com much easier to work with in Safari. Some Web applications are similar in this regard.

I'm largely satisfied with the Web browsing experience on macOS with Voiceover and Safari (no desire to use Windows instead). However, as discussed earlier in this thread, Apple hasn't addressed the underlying issues responsible for applications' becoming unresponsive, including Web browsers. The incidence of "Safari not responding" messages has greatly reduced in recent macOS releases, but the underlying phenomenon (possibly threads waiting for API calls to return that never do) still exists.

If an application becomes unresponsive, it's still possible to switch to other applications and to use them with VoiceOver. This suggests VO is using multiple threads to interact with different running applications - again, not solving the problem, but mitigating the effects.

I use Firefox, so YMMV. I find that if you search for a product and want to get to the results and have heading nav and such mostly work, it helps to scroll past all the junk at the top. So what I usually do is hit 'h' a couple of times in single key quick nav, get to maybe "hide keyboard shortcuts" or such, and then just hold VO-right until you get past search at least.

When downloading something in Safari, after clicking the download link, and allowing the download if this is your first time downloading from that website, you can reveal the Downloads window by choosing View > Show downloads (or pressing Command-Option-L). In this window, interact with the table, and then interact with the item being downloaded. Here, you should find a progress indicator and status text for the item.

By default, VoiceOver might not automatically speak when the focused item, like the status text or progress indicator, is updated, but this can be changed in VoiceOver Utility > Verbosity > Announcements. In addition, settings for what to do when status text changes can be changed from anywhere in macOS by pressing VO-V, and choosing an option from the "When status changes" menu.

HTH

I did actually experience the infamous SNR bug while developing Vosh on macOS 14, and it was definitely not a consumer-side accessibility thing, so it does not have anything to do with VoiceOver using or not multiple threads to do accessibility, which it likely doesn't, because as I mentioned earlier, the consumer-side of the accessibility infrastructure is not thread-safe.

What I experienced back then was that some accessibility connections, if we can call them that, would randomly either not get replies from WebKit or would fail immediately as if they had timed out but without actually letting the configured time elapse. This was also accompanied by browser instability, so if all the accessibility elements for the browser were locally destroyed and recreated again, the browser would resume working but eventually would grind to a halt. At one point I even experienced SNR on Vosh while VoiceOver was working normally at exactly the same time.

While Apple definitely attempted to tackle the problem on macOS 15, I suspect that their attempt was yet another workaround, because what I observe now is that after browsing some websites, VoiceOver's responsiveness sometimes begins slowing down to a point that the time it takes between issuing a command and getting feedback exceeds 3 seconds, until eventually SNR briefly appears and then the system does something to reset the accessibility infrastructure or whatever, and the feedback delay goes back to normal.

That's a very helpful explanation - thank you. Perhaps using accessibility API debugging tools, if they're publicly available from Apple, would assist in bug reporting. Can the community arrange for someone who knows how to track down problematic API interactions to reproduce bugs and report the technical details? This would (I hope) bypass the first step Apple would need to carry out in attempting to reproduce bugs and to identify the cause. I know this community shouldn't have to do what I'm suggesting. Writing good bug reports should be enough, but there's also potential value in demonstrating the underlying technical causes - at least in some cases.

Of course, if Apple doesn't make a monitoring tool available that can show API access, then this won't be possible - potentially illegal as well.

because what I observe now is that after browsing some websites, VoiceOver's responsiveness sometimes begins slowing down to a point that the time it takes between issuing a command and getting feedback exceeds 3 seconds, until eventually SNR briefly appears and then the system does something to reset the accessibility infrastructure or whatever, and the feedback delay goes back to normal.
I have noticed this as well. I tend to reboot VO. Not sure if we are talking about the same bug but this sluggishness is then propagated to every navigation step, from textedit to chrome. Very small, but it is there if you know what to look for.
You mentioned webkit, but from my experience on ventura and sonoma it was also very present on chrome, just very slightly less worst?

So coming back to my question, Has it gone so bad that I should contemplate stepping back from Mac OS? I am asking this because so far accept few irritants and fundamental changes in the way navigation works in Mac overall, I am finding this a very smooth experience and in some cases even better.
By the way, on the subject of who could be the culprits, One example that would prove some aspect of Jason's post is Visual Studio Code. IN this case, it was vSCode at fold with breaking their accessibility on Mac. I downgraded it just one version and now everything is superb.
I just can't set VSCode to single colum vew, but that's not for my use case, but because I do work with my sighted team and presenting becomes an issue.
And this is not an accessibility issue any ways.

I have met quite a few blind Mac users off late and they did not have serious complaints. Indeed every screen reader has some issue or the other. There are ups and downs all the time. But after reading this thread, I am really wondering if I am going the right way. Yes Mac in general has solid OS, great features and premium build quality with superior performance. But for all of us it comes down to accessibility. So what is the real situation?

This is a site that you can buy products from, but it will be effectively dealing with companies like Amazon or one of the many others on your behalf. The prices tend to be the same (or more or less) as if you bought them directly. But it's all very accessible and designed with us in mind. They even have some specialist blind shops on there, such as Computer Room Services here in the UK. (Although the last time I looked it didn't support VAT exemption on blindness products although they seemed interested in adding this.)

I tend to use them instead of Amazon as it's just a lot less painful to navigate.

Here's what I do: I have two laptop-style machines. One is an Apple Silicon Mac. I use it a lot. The other is an older, x86 machine that dual-boots Linux and Windows - I use Linux more than Windows on it, and this machine also sees heavy use.

Screen readers and accessibility interfaces on all of these operating systems have bugs. I can work around bugs in one by using a different operating system/screen reader combination.

I shouldn't have to do this. On the other hand, I do need two machines, so they might as well have different operating systems installed. I can't afford to be without a working computer (a phone wouldn't be adequate) for the amount of time it would take to have the hardware repaired, so I've kept up the habit of having two working machines.

If you don't mind used hardware, one of your machines could be a refurbished x86 system if you prefer.

@TheBlindGuy07:

From my experience, while I can definitely feel the delay in every application after it's initially triggered, the initial trigger still seems to be WebKit itself. I'm quite sensitive to this kind of delay, which was the primary reason why I bought the AirPods Max to use as a USB audio device recently, as even the short wireless audio delay common to all AirPods bothers me.

@kk_macker:

The situation is that Apple in general prides themselves on the superior user experience and ecosystem integration of their products, which is still true for the most part but the quality has been degrading across the board while the competitors are stepping up their game, so the margin keeps getting smaller. On the accessibility front, and particularly on macOS, the experience is actually subpar compared to the third-party Windows offerings, and by the looks of it is unlikely to not improve any time soon. Modern Macs still have an edge for providing an accessible firmware, which is something that I value a lot as a power user, but from the perspective of a regular blind user I cannot recommend macOS in good faith. It's perfectly usable, and I'm proof of that, but is no match for what I recall experiencing with NVDA on Windows.

For example regular users are likely to need word processors, spreadsheets, and design and presentation tools, whereas as a power user I rely on scripted LaTeX variants and actual databases to perform the same tasks. I have even designed an icon for a game I made using CoreGraphics to output vector instructions to a square PDF, as well as 3D graphics to demonstrate a video-game world environment concept that I rendered to a video for a sighted audience. This means that the highly technical way in which I tackle visual problems as a totally blind user makes me less dependent on the accessibility of specific platforms, which is not the case for regular users, and hence my inability to suggest macOS to most people in good faith.

I also use UNIX tools extensively, including LaTeX, Pandoc, Git, general shell utilities, and so forth. My only need for word processors, spreadsheets and presentation tools is for reading other peoples' work and occasionally for other collaboration-related reasons. Mostly, though, the text-based tools meet the need very well, whether on macOS or Linux.

As I said earlier, I think it would be valuable for one of the accessibility advocacy organizations to take up macOS accessibility issues with Apple, as they have contacts and the ability to represent entire communities which individual users can't match. Meanwhile, keep up the bug reporting.

IMO, don't let other people alter your trust in your own experiences. If Mac is doing fine for you, except for a few issues, why are you letting other people convince you otherwise?

I'm not saying there aren't issues, when I switched at the end of last year, round October I think, Books was broken on the Mac. Now it's fixed for the most part and I'm using it to read books pretty regularly. I say for the most part because it sometimes stops at chapters or headings in certain books. While it's a little annoying, that's just what it does, so I deal with it.

Maybe for somebody else, that's terrible,and they stick with Windows, or at least do all their reading on Windows on a virtual machine or something. So I mean, I'm not suggesting you ignore all of the posts here talking about potential issues. I'm just saying, if it's working for you, it's working for you, you know? And it will until it doesn't, assuming that ever happens. Everybody's different.

Some people here talk about "cognitive load", they feel that the Mac is too hard, they want to do things one way but they have to do something else, and they have to remember that because it's not the way they think it should work. For me, I don't have that, I think because I just switched with the idea that everything was going to be different, because it's not Windows.

So as an example, I'm not bothered that quick nav works in these three different places, so I can just use the arrows like in Windows, but it doesn't work in these other five places, and now I have to remember which one is which! I pretty much use caps lock and the arrows the vast majority of the time, even on the web I only have single key quick nav on.

Now maybe this would drive somebody else nuts. Or maybe they have mobility issues and need quick nav to work everywhere, although I assume Mac has the equivalent of Windows sticky keys. So sure, Mac isn't for everybody. Nothing much is, except for food and water and air I guess. Everybody gotta breathe!

I'd say if there are specific issues you're worried about from these posts, see if you can figure out how to test them. Can you make them happen? Is there a specific task, say coding, that might cause problems? Try coding, see what happens. Are you writing? Try using Pages or some other app, see how it goes. But IMO doubting your own experience just because of some people posting on a forum is kind of ridiculous.

I still have Ventura. Seems from what I've gathered since Ventura, matters just keep getting worse. Thing is, though, I liked better what i had before Ventura. I'd gladly give up all the bells and whistles if only I could downgrade backwards.

I will say again that but for Sequoia aI would have already sold mine.
@Khomus
Good point.
@Jason White, João Santos
I am mostly the same. I use pandoc much more than I ever did on windows. My take honestly, and feel free to disagree, is that if you are not a real blind geek, 10% dev spirit and willing to report bugs, mac will be a very very hard sell for you.

But again, in terms of DAW accessibility is a real thing on mac and we even have real choices between reaper, logic, garageband if it's still technically a beginner daw, protools from what I've heard and others, while on windows outside reaper I literally don't know anything that is sufficient as an actual DAW.
I was and still very am a heavy web user and that's among the reasons why mac was so hard for me to get used to. And ventura and Sonoma, I am sorry, did not help at all. It;s not just because of the bad google suite experience with VO, it's more because of what it means broadly, that the web ,for blind users, is still something hard to access and to be scared of, a feeling that is not shared among my circle where we all love web, electron and etc, as well as the cross platform accessibility brought with it. I am in the younger generation, I hardly remember the windows xp era, for me on windows nvda is the gold standard for web and before my mac in 2023 most of my workflow was around the web and the real desktop apps I'd fully use were the microsoft office suite, and even then because it was more oof a convenient experience than the equivalents of google. And of course terminal for everything actually important, aka dev and just having fun (yes terminal is fun!). Added with how Vo is vad with large chunks of text... I was disappointed.
The thing is that even with applevis, you really have to read about 1k+ messages in this thread to really get a sort of pulse of what's going on. Again, now I am a very happy user of mac, I did VM before but now I am lazy so just use my old hp laptop (x86) whenever I really need windows.
I am probably among the rare to prefer the microsoft teams experience on the mac with chrome. On double tap, there was a casual comment by Shawn on may9 about how the wp-admin experience was incredible with wordpress on mac because of the item chooser. I heard that an interface of salesforce is actually perfectly accessible on the mac and unusable elsewhere.
It's a boring thing to say but it really depends on you, although I'd overall if you want the best desktop accessibility experience than mac should probably not be your first choice.

I mean, I know my way around computers, I've done some programming, and I occasionally use terminal and all. But I'm pretty much using Mac the way most normal people would, and it seems fine. Of course there are issues, but on the whole, I'm getting done what I need to get done, and it doesn't seem particularly hard to do.

Your other DAW option is Ableton Live, also on Windows.

Firstly thanks Khomus, Jason and all ov you.
The fact is that I am a power user, a totally blind software engineer since 2002 and used linux almost for 85% of my career.
I too came into mac world asuming many or most things will change and are done in different way.
So I was kind of prepared in mind. I am however really frustrated with Terminal, as i have mentioned in another post. Add to it the fact I need it almost all the time.
I strangely found google sheets and google docs fairly accessible even with Chrome. But when it comes to file manager (aka finder ), it is the place where I get seriously bugged. So other than these two issues I am not finding any serious problems.
I hope some advocacy group takes this up with apple and we have lesser complaints. Example, I never here a notification alert if wifi disconnects. On Ubuntu this is not the case with Orca, and this is sometimes very frustrating. Unless I am doing something wrong here, I can't really understand how Apple accessibility team can't do this simple thing?

First, Thank you @João Santos for your service to the community. Whilst ultimately The project didn't work out, I For one really appreciate what you did for us. It's people like you with their excellent technical background and inclusive mindset of individual advocacy Taken on by you which was truly magnificent. Just reading this thread, I've been enriched by your wisdom. Now, For my thoughts. I'm not a dev, Although I have worked in software engineering in the past, As well as getting multiple certs in IT. However, There are other's here who would know more about those details. What I can say from experience in running my own consulting firm and being a power user of the Mac going back to 2010, Apple has a big problem with accessibility on the Mac. A large part being technical, The culture at the company, and this attitude of we know what's best. Through my consultative work I've been able to build positive connections within Apple. The people are just trying to do what they can, But being severely curtailed by the juggernaut. There needs to be a reckoning at Apple in relation to Mac accessibility at Apple, and soon I'd wager. Granted many bits of feedback I gave them has been implemented, But the lack of real term ROI means I will never invest in further Mac hardware. I do and have recommended the Mac to some of my clients, Only after deep research and on a case by case situation. Again, I love the Mac, Specially when it comes to music creation as well as listening to music, But after 14 years I have become slightly jaded to it's mesmerizing qualities, Lovely hardware etc. In fact, I don't plan to upgrade to the next major Mac-OS until Apple decides to awaken from it's slumber and practices the notion of actions speak louder than words.

Restating my gratitude for just the tenth time in this post , in this year :) but you deserve every bit of it.

Restating my gratitude for just the tenth time in this post , in this year :) but you deserve every bit of it.

Well, as a basic user of Mac (using it to edit documents create power point slides etc) VO is just fine for me.
The only issue which I can find is you need to find many work arounds to do different things properly.
Such as opening a word document in text edit if you only want to read it as let’s be real, the official Microsoft Word app does not support reading word documents with VoiceOver efficiently.
Or the fact that the best browser for Google docs is Google Chrome instead of the default browser (Safari)
I personally would not like the idea of another potential screen reader for Mac, unless if the developer of that screen reader promises to keep 95%-100% of VO keyboard shortcuts.
The screen reader must also be offering a lot of compelling options such as AI descriptions of what’s on my screen or maybe voice commands to control your Mac.
I am not willing to relearn all the keyboard shortcuts for controlling a new screen reader all over again!

This has never been about the screen reader! Voiceover purely as a product is really not that bad, quite good in fact. It doesn't have as much blind spots as other screen readers on windows, especially jaws. Mac is great at announcing whenever something is opened in the background, whether it's a popup, floating window and what not, something that's still unmatched on other platforms. It's... literally all the rest that's been discussed here so far.
Or the fact that the best browser for Google docs is Google Chrome instead of the default browser (Safari)
This has been the official statement of Google, and I don't have any problem about it on a theoretical standpoint.
... This especially should not mean that VO is bad only for power users.

Firstly, yes there are some really fundamental issues with accessibility on Mac.
The worst amongst it is inconsistent bug fixes and re-appearances.
But overall I feel VO is really excellent and one can't deny the overall performance of the machine and it's build quality. I know it is nothing to do with accessibility as such, but being a directo of a tech company, this performance does matter to me personally.
Apple mail, google chrome with google sheets and slides as well as keep is really very accessible.
This is the very reason I am a bit frustrated with the issues that have been discussed in this thread, because I am not quitting mac for a long time now. Again, if we constantly as a community go at the apple accessibility team, they will listen eventually.
This is what I believe and also believe that this is our right. unlike open source software, we are paying for the machine, OS and that implies for the accessibility as well.

No right. There's a lot of getting used to, and that's why although I would not necessarily be recommending the mac to the first blind person met on the streat the more user there are the better, and as said earlier on this site I have seen positive results after feedbacks, just enough so I keep submitting them.
Yes, macos has been a very good os compared to windows lately, and for blind it's imo still the best and most accessible linux desktop.
Build quality :) especially with macbook pros? 20hrs battery life, period.

I regret upgrading to MacOS Ventura. What I had before that worked great. It was solid. It did everything I asked it to do. However, even though I ran into problems with Ventura, I'm very glad I haven't upgraded again. While I am happy for those who share their positive experience with newer MacOS, there are those of us here who have had a profoundly different experience. For example, because of a MacOS upgrade to Ventura, I was forced to entirely discontinue my primary Mac activity for a year until the problem finally got resolved. Meanwhile, I was also forced to put up with extrreme text entry slow downs due to an Apple MacOs data base issue with text replacement that required 35 calls by me to Apple over six months to finally solve. Do you know who finally figured out what was going on? Me. Apple felt so bad they offered me a gift card, which I declined.

In sum, I'm waiting for a new OS that everybody here likes. Yes, I might be waiting a very long time. I don't care. All those new bells and whistles can't hold a candle to a fully functional operating system. Remember DOS? No. When all you folks 0out there share how great the newest OS is, then and only then will i upgrade. It might be different if Apple permitted downgrading, but they don't. Believe me, it's not because they want to help us avoid problems or to help us exercise our free will

Joy!

Bruce

I have heard so many times now that before ventura mac and especially voiceover really wasn't the buggy mess it was on ventura when I first started...

March 28th 2014 was the first day I decided to turn on VoiceOver on the late-2011 MacBook Pro that I had at the time. The tutorial did impress me and got me up to speed very quickly, but the issues started making themselves noticed shortly after. I think the latest macOS at the time was Mavericks, which is also the last version of macOS that I remember experiencing visually.

One of the first issues that I noticed immediately back then was that VoiceOver would randomly get confused and audio duck itself instead of everything else, which made using it while listening to music somewhat annoying until eventually they fixed it recently. Loading any reddit page with more than 25 comments resulted in huge screen-reader slowdowns, writing any code in Xcode with VoiceOver resulted in frequent crashes, caret browsing was yet to be implemented, and even today it's nearly useless anyway, the `NSTextView` bug that I talked about frequently was already present so for example pressing Option+Down in TextMate only made it read the last line of the paragraph, writing anything with a dash between words, like separating the artist and song name in a music description, made the speech synthesizer read 'semicolon' where the dash was supposed to be, and many other bugs that we have today already existed back then.

In 2019, a minor update to macOS Catalina introduced a very annoying bug in most US English voices where any word longer than 30 characters would get spelled out and cut at the 30 character limit, so identifiers in code like UIDocumentBrowserViewController, which is 31 characters long, would have their 30 characters spelled out and the last ignored instead of the identifier being read normally. I did report this to their accessibility E-mail address, sent some audio captured from VoiceOver demonstrating the problem, provided examples of text strings that caused this in the E-mail, and in their reply a week later they just said they were unable to reproduce the problem. This was finally tackled in Sequoia, where they addressed it in cases where the speech synthesizer only spells a single identifier, but if the identifier appears as part of a larger text body, the bug still manifests.

This interaction, coupled with a number of interactions that had with Apple engineers over the years in which they always avoid recognizing when their frameworks are poorly designed, made me decide to never report a bug to Apple again because it's just a waste of time, so these days whenever I find a bug I either reverse-engineer the code in order to try to come up with a workaround, or failing that I just adapt to the situation the best I can since I don't really expect Apple to care about any kind of feedback anymore.

Not sure if this is a speech engine issue, or a voiceover issue at this point, but the bug mentioned above where a dash is red as a semicolon still exists, at least on iOS. Just go make a note in your notes app, and make a hyphenated list.
Good times…

Don't blame what's not apple's fault. This dash to semicolon error is present in all vocalizer/nuance voices on all screen readers as it's a bug hardcoded in the very voices. Yet we blind have to pay for this and yet don't get any fix as... nobody is really responsible for them anymore, IE I last time the voices got an update was like 2014-2016? This happens on windows, ios, mac... with voiceover, nvda and jaws. On linux as well, with voxyn.

The thing is that Apple engineers will surely not know about the issues we face untill they are informed. And just knowing but not taking action will continue till we don't report bugs in masses. For Apple we are paying customers and if they do see a lot of voice, it is more likely they will have to fix it out of requirement.
It is also about how seriously accessibility is taken by the decision makers. For NVDA on windows or Orca on Linux, we hardly contrinute in terms of time and/ or money. But with Mac, The OS is already payed for when we buy the laptop or phone. So accessibility is a paid part of it.
Off late I am really enjoying programming in VSCode and Safari accessibility is above usable (but not perfectly excelent), Chrome does well in many cases for me like google sheets and slides. But I still feel that the only way we can make apple decision makers feel serious about our issues is to approach them as a strong community. Like Sighted users, we too are their customers and since voiceover as come so far, they do seem to have the intention to have blind customers use MAC. With issues not related to but affecting the use of Voiceover, some cooperation from the apple engineers will still be needed. For example the spell check being broken in terms of accessibility in Safari and Chrome seems to be a double sided problem.

Who is specifically blaming Apple here? I specifically said,

“

I do not know if this is a, speech engine issue, or a, VoiceOver issue, at this point.

”

You say it is a Vocalizer, in other words speech engine, issue. I say, cool, thank you for pointing that out to me.

At no time did I specifically blame Apple.

🤨

All the bugs are actually Brian's fault, not Apple's. If it weren't for Brian constantly pointing out how innocent he is, we'd realize Apple is really the one who is to blame for all Brian's faults.

(Just joking around, Brian)

Stop giving away all my secrets. 🥺

So Brian is sabotaging macOS? A lot of things make sense now!

On MacOS, the mathematical prime symbol, ′, Unicode 2032, is announced by VoiceOver as "prime," just as God and Isaac Newton intended.

On iOS, in normal reading mode, it's not pronounced at all, and when you navigate by character, it's announced, "apostrophe." To change this behavior, you must set up a new punctuation group, which requires ninth-level settings wizardry to accomplish.

I know that this is pretty obscure. But the difference in behavior is inexplicable. There's only one company producing VoiceOver, and either they didn't bother to do something as common sense as ensure identical VoiceOver defaults across platforms, or they intentionally decided that the iOS pronunciation of this symbol should be not just different, but wrong, for reasons only known to the Apple accessibility Illuminati..

It's indicative of a larger problem, and all of the feedback reports, fluff features, and version renumbering in the world isn't going to fix it.

My subject might seem a little weird, if you check the spelling, but it is a direct response to PaulMartz post above, where if you write the letters X and L together, voiceover would read it out as "40". It was very frustrating back when I was making notes for Mortal Kombat XL, as I was learning how to play it on my Xbox.

@João,
You too, stop giving away my secrets! 🫣✊

Just found out that some sites in Safari have an issue when trying to read by line. It actually reads the line starting from middle till end or from starting till the Centre. Now the fun part is that the same sites on Ubuntu Orca also have a problem. Not that lines are cut off but words are broken. So although there are two totally different problems. the problem does exist across screen readers. This implies that fixing on both ends is necessary. I am still waiting for a fix to auto correction for typos. It works in apple mail but not anywhere else.

Look, I don't entirely hate VoiceOver, but I think the experience could be so much better. It feels like we're almost second-class citizens when it comes to MacOS VoiceOver. If it is true that VoiceOver runs on only one core, for instance, that is shameful. We have powerful processors, yet VoiceOver is only given a small amount to use.

Another embarrassing thing is the accessibility of even first-party apps - Maps and Music, in particular. I was trying to look up a place in Maps yesterday and it just kept circling me back to the top, and Music barely functions. Both of these apps aren't entirely accessible, let alone user friendly. How embarrassing.

It really sucks - I really like MacOS, I love Mac hardware, but VoiceOver lets the whole experience down. I'd love to switch back, but the experience can be so poor that I'd rather not. Apple needed to put some resources into their VoiceOver team like... yesterday. If they won't because they believe no-one uses VoiceOver on MacOS, that's just an excuse.

Now that Apple has officially announced the next OS "Tahoe" we can half expect some good bug fixes. But we can be much better if we see this opportunity and report fundamental bugs in large way. Like a lot of us reporting. Also we make sure that we don't tell them that a work around for a certain task exists, even if it does exist. That may give some gravity to our issues. Also Like I did, let's give them the volume of loss we face or a potential benefit that can be achieved if a bug is fixed.

I was thinking about buying a new Mac, since mine isn't getting Tahoe, but I'm reconsidering after this thread. I can't even test the beta, so hopefully y'all can report bugs and such, especially if VO doesn't work better with Google Docs and Sheets, which is required for my job and is the reason I reconsidered Windows and now primarily use that.

hope the bugs that are in this thred can be fixt

the 40 bug when yyou type XL happens on iPadOS with the Alex voice and has bin around for a few years

hope apple fixes it but i dout they will