Opinion: Apple needs to step it up when it comes to OS X accessibility

Member of the AppleVis Editorial Team
Forum
Accessibility Advocacy

For the passed several years, we’ve gotten used to the new versions of iOs and OS X, as well as the inevitable infestation of accessibility bugs plaguing these releases. Most times, these issues are resolved promptly.

However, unusually, OS X El Capitan’s Voiceover bugs have not gotten much attention by Apple, even after four system updates. This is striking on multiple levels. Firstly, in iOs 9, many of the initial bugs have been fixed, and in the case of iOs 9.3, enhancements to Voiceover have been added. Also, with iOs 9’s and OS X El Capitan’s theme of improved stability, similar to OS X Snow Leopard in 2009, one would expect glaring accessibility issues to have been addressed by now.

The release of Snow Leopard may arguably have been the best release for Voiceover users. Although there have been changes and improvements since then, no version has really overhauled the experience like Snow Leopard did. Although it contained its fair share of bugs in its August 2009 release, most were promptly fixed by version 10.6.2, released several months later. This has remained the pattern for several iterations of OS X now, the, “.2,” update including fixes for Voiceover. This was seen with Lion, Mavericks, and Yosemite.

However, even after the release of OS X 10.11.4, the list of active OS X bugs on AppleVis has remained largely intact. The first update to El Capitan, 10.11.1, claimed to improve Voiceover reliability. From my testing and reaction from other Voiceover users, the only change noted was improved responsiveness of Nuance voices when switching apps. In 10.11.2, an issue with Voiceover not jumping to the message body when opening a message in Mail was fixed. In 10.11.3, there were no changes that I could see, and in 10.11.4, the only noticeable change I’ve found is the decreased occurrence of the click sound when navigating web fields.

Of note on the AppleVis website is a fix for a, “Speech loop,” in the AppStore. While there are many bugs in the AppStore that are difficult to reproduce, I have not noticed any changes in behavior when compared to earlier versions of El Capitan.

While these are welcome improvements, serious bugs remain. For example, the use of the caps-lock key as the Voiceover modifier, which could ease the switch from Windows screenreaders to Voiceover on the Mac, is infeasible for many users. Quicknav can’t be toggled in Safari, Voiceover behaves oddly in password fields, and enabling trackpad commander does not work reliably. A feature can only be considered an improvement to the software if it can actually be used to the satisfaction of the user, which is not the case for this. Still other issues include activities causing large delays when Nuance voices are in use, Voiceover getting stuck when interaction is disabled, another potentially useful new feature, and the, “Social,” widget not being navigable with traditional Voiceover commands; to name a few.

It is time for the OS X Accessibility Team, or whoever works on the engineering of these products, to respond to the feedback submitted by myself and other blind Mac users concerning the state of accessibility on the platform. While the current user experience is largely cohesive, failing to fix these problems could cause accessibility to greatly deteriorate in future releases of OS X. As blind users, we shouldn’t have to wait so long for a critical system component’s issues to be fixed; the very component that enables us to purchase, use, and recommend your products.

Let me know what you think in the comments.

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Comments

Submitted by Sergey on Wednesday, March 23, 2016

To my opinion, the level of accessibility implemented in OS X makes this environment absolutely useless in educational and proffessional environments. And price of any Apple's computer, at least in Russia, exceeds price of Windows based PC with similar specs and even commercial screen reader inlcuded. In my opinion, Apple should make it possible for third party devs create alternative screen reader solution for their platform and pay more attention in maintaining the neccessary infrostructure for such sulutions.

Submitted by Mitchell on Wednesday, March 23, 2016

It's the third-party development teams that don't seek to work accessibility into their apps. Sure, a good chunk of people put their time and effort into making their apps accessible, but the majority of people just don't know about VoiceOver.

Submitted by brandon armstrong on Wednesday, March 23, 2016

hi, I'm sorry if some aren't going to want to hear this, but I have to say it. 2 words. tim cook. ever sense he's taken over this company it just seems that accessibility on the mac side has just gone down hill. for example, when you would report a bug when Steve was head of apple, you would get a response via email, and normally the issue would be fixed with in a matter of months. along comes tim cook, and it just seems that the bugs that are present don't ever get attention. let's face it, he can't be bothered to do anything useful as far as accessibility on the mac. his team is gone, he got rid of good people who fixed things, and put people in charge who don't know anything about design and fixing.

Submitted by Edward Alonzo on Wednesday, March 23, 2016

Hello, I agree on so many levels.
firstly I think its gone down hill as far as little thins that we used to use on a daily basis. for instance, in edif formfields in safari, you can't or at least I can't move around just simpley using the voice over keys. VO l doesn't work to read lines and quite honestly, I usually write my responces in another app and then paste them back in as its verry unreliable to type them in the Safari edit fields and read the text with voice over.

Submitted by Matt C on Wednesday, March 23, 2016

Hi there.
Great article.
These are my thoughts exactly. I agree with the comment on Tim Cook, it seems so true.
I'd love to send an email directly to him if I could to politely let him know that OS X needs some serious work in the Accessibility department.
The comment about App accessibility is true, but VO in El Crap is very very broken, even with Apple's own built in Apps. I have loads of trouble with Safari, and the iWork Suite. I'm even forced to restart my Mac to make iWork Apps work, something I've never had to do before.
For a so called "Bug fix" release, I'm astounded to see how long it's been that VoiceOver has been this unusable on OS X.
I'm actually at the point now where I don't know if my next computer will be a Mac. NVDA has improved so much for windows, it's amazing. I don't say this lightly either. I've been a Mac user since 2007, and have loved it until now. I thought I hated 10.7, but I'd take that over what we have now any day.
Thanks for sharing.

Submitted by Matt C on Wednesday, March 23, 2016

Hi again.
I forgot to mention in my just posted comment that a lot of these bugs were in the betas of El Crap, so you can see how long they've been there.

Submitted by Oliver Kennett on Wednesday, March 23, 2016

I'm writing this using Crome because, as stated, Safari is a pile of plop. It's erratic in behaviour, hangs on several pages and, all together, just not worth using. Considering this is supposed to be apple's own browser, why is it google's browser seems to work better, with a few little problems?

I'm losing confidence in using OS, I am starting to question my own ability to use it. Am I just doing it wrong or is it buggy software. I'm just wondering if they're focusing development on IOS as that is likely to be the main market? Or, maybe there will be a marrying of the two operating systems.

As it stands, despite being the relatively new kid on the block, IOS is far more usable. So much so that I'm thinking about an iPad for my next computer when I finally lob my macbook through a window...

Submitted by Toonhead on Wednesday, March 23, 2016

I know lots of y'all probably aren't going to want to hear this, but after reading these comments, I think my decision to stay with Windows is most certainly justifiable. As far as Tim Cook goes, you guys who feel this way should quite definitely write him an email and see what kind of response you get. also, contact the accessibility team and let them know of your findings too. This way you can't ever say you didn't let your opinions known and you can say you reported the issues.

Submitted by brandon armstrong on Wednesday, March 23, 2016

that's just it, we can't email tim cook directly, and some like my self continually tell accessibility about how bad it has become under tim cook, and all we get is well i'm sorry you feel that way. I'm sorry, but their needs to come a point in time where accessibility stops saying their sorry and do something about the growing list of bugs that have plagued us sense mountain lion. they keep saying we have a dedicated team to accessibility, ok. i'll take that. stop saying, and start doing is what I have told them on many occasions. it's fine that you can tell me you have a team in place,, but let's be real here, if you just talk, and don't do things then you can't be taken very seriously.

Submitted by Joseph on Wednesday, March 23, 2016

Subject says it all really. I won't bother restating any of the points made here.

Submitted by splyt on Wednesday, March 23, 2016

Strangely enough I do conmsider El Cap as being one of the most inovative branches os OS in terms of accessibility.
VO has adopted a single key for its commander, get red of the interation when it was not needed and become faster playing the sounds at the same time the sr is speaking instead of before the sr could speak.
The privious version got red of the needs of using the vo navigation object model in webpages, enabling a kind of virtual buffer interface.
To say that accessibility is not being actively thought in OS X is in my opinion not true. The thing is that they need to make what they did in IOS 9 and focus a little bite more on stabilizing stuff than implementing new stuff.

Submitted by brandon armstrong on Wednesday, March 23, 2016

I'm sorry but i do not agree with the last poster. I question how long has this person been a mac user them selves? I've used one from 2009 until now, and I have noticed a change.

Submitted by thunderhorse82 on Wednesday, March 23, 2016

While I agree with some of the points raised, improvements, I disagree with the idea that Safari and other parts of the operating system make it difficult to use. I use Safari and navigate and use it just fine without any issues each and every day. I can navigate and use all other native apps though some can due with improvements. A lot of the times people complain abut accessibility and there is no problem except the user not knowing how to preform at task or use an application with voiceover. These aren’t bugs, but rather a lack of knowledge on how voiceover reacts or interacts with a given application or part of an operating system. For example, people complained that Garage band was inaccessible which is completely false, it is rather a lack of knowledge about how the application works and how voiceover interacts with it. Are there bugs and do there need to be improvements, yes there absolutely does, however, to say that the state of affairs is as bad as the poster is suggesting is in my humble opinion inaccurate to a degree. I have used macs for many years of my life, way before voiceover came along and in the days of third party screen readers for the mac. Another issue I wish to raise is this, people complain about bugs, however, many do not send emails to apple accessibility to suggest a bug or improvement instead choosing to just gripe about it, further more, if you wish to make a difference become a beta tester and help make the experience better for accessibility. Just one mans opinion. Oh yeah, to suggest that Tim doesn’t care about accessibility is completely wrong in my opinion..these matters need to be taken up with apple accessibility, not Tim. Again, one mans opinion.

Submitted by brandon armstrong on Wednesday, March 23, 2016

I'm sorry, but to the last poster, some of us have beta tested software, and reported bugs time and time again. nothing gets done to fix the problems. I don't take to kindly to the fact that you seem to think that we don't have know how on how to use safari and some of the other built in apps. in case you would like to know, I have beta tested for apple several times, this includes both mac and iPhone, so I do believe that those of us who have beta tested and see where apple is going do have a right to tell tim cook about his lack of caring about accessibility.

Submitted by Darren12 on Wednesday, March 23, 2016

I've often considered switching to mac, but this excellent article and the accompanying comments demonstrate why I've been reluctant. NVDA really has become my primary screen reader over the last 2 years, and it is a very strong alternative to commercial options now.
Generally, I think this is a sad state of affairs, and ultimately in an educational or professional setting you can't be dealing with the issues some of you have described. I'd be writing almost continually to accessibility if it were me. Clearly, there are aspects of the mac that still provide significant advantages, but persistently buggy software is unacceptable as far as I'm concerned, not when people depend on these devices to get the job done in some cases. I believe we have enough issues with third party developers, let alone dealing with Apple's own software inadequacies that remain unaddressed ages after the initial release. Nonsense.

Submitted by brandon armstrong on Wednesday, March 23, 2016

like i have stated before, I've used macs sense 2009 and tim cook has just taken the accessibility team and driven it into the toilet. he can't seem to get stuff right, things constantly break, both on mac and iphone, and as a paying apple customer, it angers me very much that this state of afairs is allowed to even continue in 2016. if I ran apple, I promise you their would be some huge shakeups and overhauling of the company to get it right.

Submitted by thunderhorse82 on Wednesday, March 23, 2016

To the gentlemen who said that he doesn’t take kindly to me saying that I am suggesting you don’t know how to use an application…I am not sir suggesting you or someone else on here doesn’t know how to use it, rather I am saying that there are many cases of this happening. As I said, one mans opinion. The fact is, the more that beta test and give feedback, and/or send accessibility an email the more likely things will be fixed. Even the sighted experience bugs, so it isn’t just the blind community. Bug and improvements occur on every platform, mac, windows, and linux. I am just saying to suggest that things are this bad is not true in my personal opinion. Voiceover has come a long, long way from what it use to be. Again, are there bugs and need for improvements, sure absolutely…is it not usable, no that would be a false statement as many others, me included, use voiceover with the operating system and apps just fine on a daily bases. Many people claim pages isn’t accessible, that is false, rather a lack of know how on how to use it. This doesn’t apply to all, or even you, but there enough out there that seem to think this and it is up to others to inform others on its use and and how it can be done using voiceover. I am not here to attack or suggest you don’t know how to do something, rather to inform others who may read this who may want to get a mac that things aren’t extreme as is suggested here and that voiceover is very accessible with the mac and the overall function of its operating system.

Submitted by brandon armstrong on Wednesday, March 23, 2016

I'm sorry to say this, but to sit here and say reporting bugs and emailing them and saying they will get fixed is just absolutely not true. trust me, I have friends who have reported bugs in betas like my self and we still have the same issues that were in the beta software. I've stepped away from beta testing because of this issue.

Submitted by Toonhead on Wednesday, March 23, 2016

If you guys really do feel the way you do about how bad the mac has become, then it's time to give it up. Sell it, get rid of it and go back to Windows and don't support a company you don't think is meeting your accessibility needs. I absolutely love my iPhone but I don't think I'd buy a mac. They're too expensive and I'd never get a good return on my investment, what with all the bugs in the current os. I'm still in Windows 7 land but a new pc with Windows 10 on it is in my not-to-distant future, and I'll upgrade with confidence that my assistive tech will meet all the challenges that Windows throws at it. I'm not gonna sit here and say apple sucks or the mac sucks because that doesn't help anyone. But if you guys think Apple is so terrible, why continue to support them and throw thousands of dollars their way? If you aren't happy, find something else that meets your accessibility needs much better at least on the computer end of things. I'm very happy with iOS and will keep buying iDevices as they come out.

Submitted by Carlos Taylor on Wednesday, March 23, 2016

I use a mac daily and can't say that the bugs are so bad that it is unusable. There was a bug I experienced under previous versions of El Capitan that was fixed in 10.11.4. Do bugs still exist, definitely, but I can't say that Apple doesn't care about accessibility when I have seen bugs get fixed and new features get added. Improvements to Logic's accessibility come in each new release and new features that come out for the general public are also accessible to VoiceOver users. When you have a bug to report, be sure to give specific, step by step examples of what they can do to duplicate the bug. No software is without bugs, but I am able to do my work on my MacBook air and my iMac. Perhaps a reinstall of the OS will get some things straitened out for some, but I strongly disagree with the notion that there are so many bugs that the operating system and applications are unusable. I am not regretting my switch to the Mac by any means and don't have any desires to go back to Windows full time. I have to use it for work, but I sure don't miss it as my full-time operating system.

Submitted by thunderhorse82 on Wednesday, March 23, 2016

I never said they would get fixed, I said the more likely they are to be fixed, there is a big difference. The poster that said to specifically give instructions to how a bug occurs so they can reproduce it is absolutely correct. Simply saying there is a bug and this is what is does is not always the right way to go about it. Explain what you were doing and how, further more, send the diagnostics file when the issue is occurring, this better helps them understand what is going on.

Submitted by Darren12 on Wednesday, March 23, 2016

Clearly, I'm not a mac user, so not qualified to comment on any of this really, accept to say if bugs are present and not being resolved for extended periods, this is poor. I would very much agree with Toonhead's sentiments ultimately. I don't think that we as a community have the luxury of being permanent evangelists for a particular platform, when It's always best to select the option that ensures optimum productivity.

Submitted by Joe on Wednesday, March 23, 2016

Club AppleVis Member

I use a mac every day and it works fine for me. I enjoy the fact that I can install the os myself something you can't do without a third party app on windows at this time and I enjoy browsing safari. I'm not a power user but it meets my needs and I've had it 2 years.

Submitted by Special K on Wednesday, March 23, 2016

Sorry guys, but while I see some very minor annoyances, I use El Cap almost exclusively in my day to day life. There definitely was some sluggishness, but a clean install of everything fixed the annoying problems I had experienced. I use Pro Tools, Logic, and Sound Forge every day professionally, and Safari and Mail to surf the web and buy gear. I also use iWork, and everything works fine for me. I have not encountered the Voiceover loops you all speak of. Really, the only bug I've encountered is using the Caps key as a VO modifier. Still not quite ready for prime time. Other than that, no problems on a 2012 MBP, 8GB memory, 512GB SSD.

Submitted by Ekaj on Wednesday, March 23, 2016

I have to agree with Joe here. I don't necessarily consider myself a power user either, although ever since I got my MacBook at the end of 2013 I've been basically teaching myself various things. I did attend one in-store training session along with my mother right after I got this computer, and the guy who conducted the session was excellent. Just yesterday morning I updated to OS X El Cap version 10.11.4 and have thus far not experienced any issues. This has more or less been the case from the beginning. In fact I'm rather surprised that my MacBook is still as fast as it is given how much music I have on here. If you were to ask me what my one and only complaint at this point is about Apple, I'd have to say the discontinuation of these One-to-One sessions next month. But then again, Apple Support recently started a Twitter account so I'm not going to complain anymore. Or at least for the time being. I think mileage definitely does vary in this regard though. A sister of mine who is a VoiceOver user, is having a problem with Safari on her MacBook. But I'm going to try and help her figure things out when I'm at my parents' house over this Easter weekend.

Submitted by Apple Khmer on Wednesday, March 23, 2016

The bugs I encounter are minor to me. Minor like Safari edit box doesn't cooperate very well; so I have to type my stuff in, say, Text Edit, then paste the text in to the edit box in Safari. Edit boxes like in e-mail and on platforms like Twitter and FaceBook. I also have to close windows and then go to the menu bar, and press b, to get to bookmarks. I remember in Snow Leopard, I didn't have to do all of that. Edit boxes in Safari worked fine, and I can go to the menu bar from anywhere and get to my bookmarks by pressing b. So nowadays, I have boot camped my Mac so I may run both WINDOWS and Mac on it. For the sake of having options, and not being stuck when there is something I absolutely cannot do on the Mac side of things. IOS may rival Android on accessibility, but third-party screen readers for WINDOWS still rival Mac OS. Having NVDA as my back up in case something happens with JAWS certainly helps. Yeah, I switched to a Mac five years ago, but I'm not a die-heart Mac user. I have learned as advanced and capable as Voice Over is, the options WINDOWS has will see me through until Apple does something drastic with Voice Over. I know, not all of us can boot camp our machines for various reasons, but really, what are you really going to do, or what can you do to help make the environment more friendly to users? Remember, we people who are blind or visually impaired are not Apple's only customers. Therefore, we're not the only ones getting bugs. By the way, I am typing this in Text Edit and will paste this in to the comment box on AppleVis.

Submitted by Darren12 on Wednesday, March 23, 2016

If you absolutely have to type text into a text editor instead of interacting directly with the edit field on a page, I would suggest that is bordering on ridiculous. I wouldn't have the patience to be faffing around Like that to accomplish something so mundane. I'd be taking a sledge hammer to the damn thing before long.

Submitted by Apple Khmer on Wednesday, March 23, 2016

Fortunately, t doesnt happen all the time.

Submitted by Darren12 on Wednesday, March 23, 2016

Glad to hear it, for everyone's sake. I'll put the sledge hammer away then.

Submitted by thunderhorse82 on Thursday, March 24, 2016

For those that say they have to type text in a text editor and then paste it in a edit field in Safari, this is completely incorrect. I have no issue at all doing this and this is the first I have ever heard of this. The only thing I can think of is if you have quick nav on and try to type in an edit field it may jump you to another part of a page: for example you try to type the letter H and it jumps to a heading. Easily fixed…just turn off quick nav by pressing left and right arrow keys together, and presto, no issue. Other than this, I have no clue what y’all are talking about.

Submitted by Joseph on Thursday, March 24, 2016

THat assumes you have thos quick keys set up. I don't, but that's just me.

Submitted by Apple Khmer on Thursday, March 24, 2016

With SnowLeopard, it didn't matter if I had Quick Nav on or off. Typing in edict boxes in Safari was a non-issue.

Submitted by ftealucard on Thursday, March 24, 2016

In april to a rehab agency demonstrating NVDA ,IOS and OSX for daily computing skills such as documents, e-mail and web browsing. I am mostly a windows user and some of the above has me worried. I have access to a mac of course but as I said, don't use it as much as I should. I know it enough to give this presentation however. I would like to demonstrate voiceover auto reading formatting while navigating documents, which I assume it will still do in pages?
Interesting discussion.
Thanks.

Submitted by Toonhead on Thursday, March 24, 2016

I'm glad the mac works for some of you guys, and if you're happy then please by all means stick with it! But for you guys unhappy, like I said earlier, complaining on here ain't gonna make all the probs go away. Sure, you'll feel better after you've typed it all out but at the end of the day the problems will still remain. I'm just tired of seeing all the negativity. There's no need for it. You guys who like the mac, have fun. We windows and iOS guys will have fun too and that's what's supposed to happen.

Submitted by Apple Khmer on Thursday, March 24, 2016

Don't forget about us Boot Campers.

Submitted by Sebby on Thursday, March 24, 2016

I'm now back on Yosemite. I downgraded just a couple of days before the announcement where Apple dealt a blow to PC users (and, IMO, Mac users too) by suggesting that iPad Pro would be the future of computing. And to those who suggested it, yeah I think this is ultimately a doing of Mr. Cook, the iPad fan. This is the second time I have downgraded to get back my sanity.

I agree with the OP, but for one detail: Yosemite was a very clear indicator of things to come. The fixes didn't really trickle in until very late in the game, finishing with 10.10.5, by which time we were all psyched up about El Crapitan, and (seemingly) all too stupid to recognise our fate. The last time I downgraded, it was in fact from Yosemite, as El Capitan was nearing: all the way back to Mountain Lion, after a brief stop on the way to Snow Leopard, just to reassure myself that things really were a hell of a lot better in the glorious past. This trend of sticking through thick and thin despite all the available evidence to the contrary can't be good for the VoiceOver-using public.

And yeah, text editing in Safari is just cool here on Yosemite; not so on El Crap. :)

You want my advice? Stop giving Apple the benefit of the doubt. It's easy to do, to have faith and optimism, particularly given their incredible performance in the past. But you should refrain, and instead increase your level of scepticism and scrutiny against this multi-billion-dollar goliath. If they will not deliver, and if you have made reasonable efforts to explain your problems, then you have done all you can and should move on. From now on I will not be participating in OS X beta tests, but will instead be relying on others (in communities like these) to tell me whether critical issues have been fixed, because if they haven't, I'm simply not going to take it any more. And neither should you. All of my Macs are Haswell or less, which means I'm ready for the jump back into the rosy past of Windows 8.1 plus Classic Shell, if things should ever become desperate enough. I'm ready for the end.

But God will I miss the spell checker. :)

Submitted by Damwysk on Thursday, March 24, 2016

I recently had to evaluate the possibilities available for business computing for visually impaired staffers and the outcome was pretty stark. I never really found the voice over experience worked well enough in our business environment but the situation seems to have deteriorated over the last few years. When taking into account the price tag I just cannot see how it makes sense to purchase a Mac for standard business activities when compared to Windows and NVDA. I know that people have their own needs but I am surprised at what people will put up with on a daily basis. No problem advising iPhones though.

Submitted by kool_turk on Thursday, March 24, 2016

You know what I would do? send this link to his twitter account, asuming @timcook is his official account.

He probably won't read it, but no harm in trying.

I think I'll just do that as soon as I hit the save button on this comment.

Submitted by Carlos Taylor on Thursday, March 24, 2016

I'm just curious as to what specific problems people are having. I'm typing this comment directly into the edit box using Safari with no issues. I use pages and text edit quite regularly and no major issues come to mind. What specific problems are all of you having? Again, I'm not saying the Mac is perfect, but I'm just not understanding what these major issues are that several are so upset about.

Submitted by Mike Malarsie on Thursday, March 24, 2016

First off I'm going to say that the Mac is great for some but not for others. What you use comes down to personal preference and anybody that says you should use this OS over that one is completely wrong. It all comes down to your needs and what you want to put up with. I find it amusing that any post like this inevitably sparks a debate over which platform is better which in my opinion is a waste of time. Neither are perfect, they both have strengths and weaknesses, so you just need to decide which works for you and go with that.
Second, while bugs do exist I've been a Mac user for years now and it fits my needs perfectly. I have no issues with Safari and Text Edit handles all my needs when it comes to documents. Some of the issues brought up here with how some of these programs don't work have left me simply confused. If you're having trouble I'd love to help out so just holler. I haven't come across any bugs that have ever made me consider switching back to a PC but again that's just me and I'm not going to tell anyone here what they should use.
Third, there's a difference between talking about bugs, giving constructive feedback, and being an asshole. I run my own website and have dealt with feedback in many forms. When someone can explain their issue clearly and respectfully I'm more than willing to do what I can to help but if the whole point of the message is to insult then I normally just delete it before I even get to the end. I understand being frustrated but there's a way to do it without letting your emotions take over and turn you into a ranting loon. let your voice be heard by all means but how about having a little respect for the person you're talking to? Is it really so hard to be a decent person?
This is a good post and brought up some valid points but I'm disappointed to see how it turned into a Tim Cook bashing party. Sure he's the CEO but blaming him personally for accessibility issues is like blaming Obama for the state of the US. While he does have something to do with it he's not God and he does have to answer to other people. Those are generalizations and assumptions and don't hold much water.
Basically what I'm getting at here is that we can address these issues without picking one person to blame and acting like children. Let's all do our part and speak up but keep in mind that how you act can determine the response. If you're going to be insulting and rude you're probably not going to get anywhere. Why not be respectful and be decent. A little kindness can go a long way. Some people thrive on contention and anger and when given a keyboard things can get really bad. Normally I don't weigh in on conversations like this because instead of a good discussion people are just throwing blame and making assumptions and I find no value in that.
Again, let your voice be heard. It really is the only way to help make positive changes. But let's try to do it in a positive way instead of tearing people down.

Submitted by Special K on Thursday, March 24, 2016

He does read his Twitter. I had an issue, not an accessibility one, but customer service, and no more than 6 hours after I tweeted, I received a call directly from Tim Cook's office. It's one thing to send a private email, but no company likes bad press. It really is too bad Tim Cook places a higher value on aesthetics than stability though. I'm afraid he doesn't view the simplicity ethos quite like Steve did. Look at how many iPads and iPhones now clutter the market, all in three different screen sizes. Just a thought.

Submitted by Special K on Thursday, March 24, 2016

To the person having problems in web edit boxes, in Snow Leopard, quick keys weren't enabled by default, but in later operating systems, they sure seem to be. Rarely do I use Quicknav, as Trackpad Commander is far faster, as is using the arrows or VO-A just to read the screens. That said, the only time I've had edit box problems has been with Quicknav enabled. It's not a bug. It's a matter of the accessibility software not thinking for you. I know, we're all used to Windows where it does, but this is totally different.

Submitted by chad on Thursday, March 24, 2016

hi i would like to weigh in mac works fine for me
i use logic all the time and sound forge
i have not been experiencing a lot of bugs on this end

Submitted by Joe on Thursday, March 24, 2016

Club AppleVis Member

One more thought this whole Tim versus Steve comment needs to stop. Remember Steve invented to market When there was no market. The iPhone was really the only smart phone out. Now there are androids that are pushing screen limits and giving people more personal choices. So I think personal choice is a good thing if I want to have the iPad mini I can have that if you want to have the iPad Pro 11 or whenever you can have that. Insulting someone as a CEO because they're giving people choices is ridiculous. It really isn't also that complicated to figure out is long as you're not doing it blindly. Again if you're not happy with something or someone just MoveOn it's not that big of a deal. I use my mac just fine as well as my iPhone and iPad and Apple Watch. Are there things I would like to see improved yes but I email and interact constructively. Carlos asked the question what people were saying problems with and no one has really responded. It's easy to throw stones but he has taught me a lot about pages I never knew. For example when you press tab in Microsoft Word on windows it will tell you how far you are from the edge there is a command to do so with the Mac is well in pages I never knew this. to each their own enjoy your day!

Submitted by Dominique Stansberry on Thursday, March 24, 2016

Wow, you guys, just wow. I'm just getting in to using the Mac myself personally for a year maybe now. Yes, I have just got rid of some annoying bugs I was dealing with in El Capitan last update by down grading back to Yosemite. I stayed on there for a few weeks, then upgraded again, just to be sure things were not as bad as I was thinking they were, but alas, I was wrong. Settings at times wouldn't save, Volume changes, Apps crashing, but I was breaking it all down to bad install, it can happen, and may have happened to you somewhere, trust me. It took 3 days to install the OS, that's how slow this internet is, so I'm really surprised it even installed. I even got a chance to do a Network install, no speech of course, but someone on Be My Eyes helped out, and all was working as it should have been. I love my Mac, and am happy with it as a full time, but am also thinking of either Bootcamping, so I can least play around with NVDA again, or just grab a VM. I'd really love to go back to windows for only one thing, and that's DancingDot's JAWS Scripts for Sonar. I feel that music related, VoiceOver really could be just as good as David Pento's Scripts are for JAWS if, ... (Someone learn's how to create Apple Scripts). Isn't it as advanced as JAWS Scripting is after all? The amount of awesome helpful feedback I get when navigating the track pain/ FX Ben/ Buss Pain, FX dialogs, that are accessible with Scripts, or b default with JAWS, was great and I'd just like for Logic Pro X To be there, witch it can be, I believe it really could. There are things that Logic X should report that it doesn't by default to VoiceOver, but it works just fine for me too. I'm using Safari right now by the way, and can use this, or the Braillepen12 and type just fine. I do have one problem how ever. I cannot use the Finder as my FTP client for some reason. I use to be able to just fine, but why I cannot now? I have no clue. I try uploading/download files from my FTP account on my website, and it says I only have Read access. Any help with what the problem could be would be nice, Helpful ideas people, no bull complaints would be nice. I really do want the iPad Pro and Apple Watch though. One good thing I will stress that I love with Apple again is, look at what they have done with Braille Support! It's awesome, nine times out of 10 any your bro display will be supported. And if not, there is a workaround! Just amazing. Windows does not support bro displays by default, speaking of accessibility though: Narrator on Windows 10 has really amazed me with how well it works! It's came a very, and I mean, very long way, from Windows XP, O.t yes, but just speaking of accessibility over all. Would be really amazing if they continued to improve it.
#raywonder

As good as Sonar was with a bolted on script, so is Pro Tools without one. Actually, it's far better! We can't throw Logic under the bus either, as it is extremely usable, has keyboard shortcuts for most everything, and we can use it out of the box for $199, as opposed to running a very archaic version of Sonar with a very expensive set of scripts. It was amazing for its time, and I made money with that setup, but the difference between the old Sonar and the latest Pro Tools is like moving from a cheap hotel to the penthouse suite at the Ritz! The entry price of Pro Tools is a bit high, but you can also rent it monthly, and there's a great training package for only $60 that will get you started. Also, the mailing list is very informative, as is the one for Logic. I knew nothing, and recorded several sessions in Logic that sounded far better than anything I recorded with Sonar!

Submitted by Justin on Friday, March 25, 2016

Agree complete with Mike malarsie. I've also been a mac user for quite a while, 5 and a half years to be exact. You're gonna have bugs on all operating systems. If you have a bug, report it to apple. If you don't like apple, then just don't use there products. Sorry if i'm being a little harsh, but it's simple facts here. I'm honestly never planning on going back to microsoft windows for a long time, so theres that. I went into the mac ecosystem off the deep end and never turned my head. I truly enjoy the seamlessness of apple's software and integration. If the bugs were show stoppers, then I wouldn't be writing this post. I find work arounds and deal with them. They aren't that big of a deal personally.

Submitted by Toonhead on Friday, March 25, 2016

There are mac and windows users, and this is how it should be. The people who love the mac aren't going to have their minds changed by someone using a different operating system, same for the Windows side. These guys have their minds made up, nobody's minds are being changed here.

Submitted by TJT 2001 on Friday, March 25, 2016

There is a way of contacting Tim Cook to let him know your concerns. His email address is tcook@apple.com. People say that his emails are very short, but that he does read the emails he receives.