Why do blind gamers enjoy simplistic apps like card games over cool audio games?

hi their, recently I've seem to notice that we as a community seem to enjoy more simplistic games like card games over great content like rock on and other audio based stuff. don't get me wrong, while I do enjoy playing a game of cards from time to time, it's not all i want to play on iOS. have we just become so use to being left out, that when a cool game comes along we give it a shot, but we gravitate more towards the simplistic apps like card based games and stuff of that nature, rather then push for more audio based content like rock on? I for one want to enjoy more main stream games like rock on rather then just have the usual simplistic offering of card and dice based games. what do you all think?

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#1 I think it has to do with location

I think it has to do with location. Since we can take our phones everywhere, it's a lot easier to play some of the blindfold card games than something like another emersive audio game. I think there's a really good place for both types of games, I like both kinds for sure.

#2 Most card games are not

Most card games are not simple but require some stragity. I love that aspect. Cribage used to be one of my favorites and I will go back to that at some point. Audio games can be coolk but I'm used to playing card games in the real world that this is what I tend to gravitate tward.

#3 I'm a fan

I'm a fan of the audio based stuff, rather than card games. They're more fun, and in my opinion. But on the other hand, card games are so damn easy to make. Lol

#4 Speaking for myself

I've been a console gamer for years and am very into the interactive narrative space. I personally play a lot of textual works and the blind fold games, though I do admit that I do enjoy audio games on IOS now and again. I'll try anything, I don't think it's a question of us preferring simple games, it's just that there's more of that class of game out there for us right now. I take Tune Head's post above this one in which he states that it's a question of location also.

#5 Availability and Choice

I think a variety of factors come into play some of which have already been mentioned.

Firstly, because card games are so much easier to make, and make accessible, they tend to be the first things put out there. Therefore, they build up a larger audience base before any other genres get on to the market.

Second, people like to play different things at different times, depending on how they feel. Some card games are a great way to pass a few minutes wile waiting for the train or just to relax and unwind. Wile audio games by their nature tend to require more concentration and involvement. That's not a bad thing, just a difference.

People will also tend to gravitate towards games that they are successful at playing. There are only a comparatively small proportion of people obsessive enough to keep playing a game they just can't win. This can include card games of course.

I do like audio games, but not because they're audio games. What I mean is, the fact that it's an audio game won't sell it to me. It has to be engaging and enjoyable. I was briefly discussing some games in a chat recently, where I explained how I didn't enjoy A Blind Legend, because to me, it isn't an adventure game. It's a fighting game with cut scenes between. I much prefer adventure games, and audio adventure games, over side-scrollers or arcade games. But Again, these latter are much easier to make, and to make accessible, than full, free-ranging NP|C interactive audio adventures. Therefore there are more of them on the market.

I do like to play card games from time to time. But I certainly won't download another one that comes out, because I've already got accessible ones that do me just fine. To me, accessible card games are a saturated market and don't need more development. I'd much rather developers put their efforts into mainstreaming audio games, or better stil, making mainstream games accessible. That's a glib statement and by no means easy. But it's certainly doable and requires time, money and ingenuity.

#6 I like all kinds of games

Hi! Speaking for myself in this debate, i like many different kinds of games, including card games, dice games and audio games. I admit that I play card and dice games more because I can pick them up any time and even if I'm feeling a bit tired, but that doesn't stop me enjoying immersive audio games too, even though I'm not very good at some of them so it can take me ages to complete them. It's all very well to generalise about what blind people play on their i-devices, but that obviously depends on availability and accessibility, and on the taste of the players. There's a place for all kinds of games: sometimes plenty of us want something simple, sometimes plenty of us want something challenging, but there's nothing wrong with either kind of game.

#7 I grow up arround Playstations

Me personally, I grow up around playstation back in the 90s Ps1, ps2, etc. I’ve always wanted to be able to play games on systems like that. I’m very happy that Apple has a Joystick that connects to any of your Apple devices now. You have no idea how thrilling that is to me! I… if someone ever get’s around to it, could play a full fledged audio immersive 3d sound game with the headphones, the whole works, etc on one of my iOS devices if they ever get to completely get that to work for us. Games like, Grantheft Auto Sanindrays Resident Evil, Mordacombat, DethJam, the list goes on. I would like for someone one day to release all of those games in a complete accessible form to us, on iOS that Voiceover can take advantage of. Hell, They got Grantheft Audo SaninDrays on iOS right now. Yes, we got AutoDefense and other Zomby based games, but Resident Evil was where it was all at back in the day.

#8 Many of us have no experience of such games

I should point out that many blind people have no experience of games on mainstream consoles like the Playstation. Sure, it would be good if IOS versions of such games could be made accessible, but that's not the only kind of game worth playing, so nobody should look down with contempt on simpler games, even if they don't enjoy them, as we all have different tastes in games anyway, and it's good to have a wide variety of games, both simple and challenging, to hopefully suit everyone who wants to play games on their devices.

#9 IOS games

This is an interesting topic. I, personally, tend to prefer interactive fiction and word-related games, although I do enjoy diceworld and hanging with friends. I have purchased nearly all of the audio games that have become available, and really like the games from Something Else. Obviously, I can't speak for others, but the main reason I don't play audio games more often is that nearly all of them require wearing headphones. I can, and will wear headphones for a work situation, or if I'm anywhere where I wouldn't want to disturb others, but as a general rule, I hate headphones, so if I'm in the privacy of my own home where I don't have to wear them, I would rather not wear them just to play a game. If we could have audio games where just using the I Devices speaker was sufficient, I'm sure I'd play them a lot more often. It could also be that a lot of the audio games are too complex for average, novice IOS users. I have co-workers, for example, who can do the basics just fine on their phones, but the complexities of some of the audio games would be beyond their skill level, so they'd probably get frustrated very quickly. So, for these average or novice users, the card/dice games are simple, fun diversions. I'm not sure if any of this makes sense, but for what they're worth, those are my initial thoughts on the issue.

#10 replay value

For me it's because of replay value.

The simple card games as you put it you can keep playing, where as with most audiogames, at least the ones telling a story make me lose interest once I've finished them.

The same goes for mainstream games.

Arcade style games like audio archery that's simple I'll come back to.

A Blind Legend I'll probably uninstall once I'm finished with it cause there's no point keeping around.

It's not like there are extra modes.

#11 changing possibilities and player desires

Club AppleVis Member

As many of you know, this topic has fascinated me all my life. In a way, I'm seeing game accessibility history unfold for a second time thanks to Apple's accessibility and widespread adoption. There are so many factors at play here that it's dizzying to contemplate. I'm working on a book which will address this better. For what they're worth, here are some of my thoughts:

It really isn't a question so much ofpreference as of availability of variety. It's a whole lot easier to make something like Diceworld accessible using Voiceover than it is to create an audio experience truly equal to many of the more complex action, puzzle, arcade and adventure titles enjoyable to those who can see. You really have to think about sound carefully making certain that information isn't masked by sounds there for atmosphere. Until you get to know the developers and/or try to create a game, it's hard to have a sense of just how much work game design actually is.

I'm horrified at the opportunities for inclusion we've already missed out on due to lack of awareness among developers of the accessibility measures Apple included such as Voiceover. There shouldn't be any gamebooks we can't access at all. However, we've managed to miss out for a second or third time on the whole Fighting Fantasy thing. I played those book with my father wishing all the while that I could play them independantly in Braille. That should be possible now. Technically, given a Braille display, it would be very possible if Tin Man Games had made their apps accessible to Voiceover. However, by the time he was made aware of a potential blind audience, it was too late to change his engine and include us. In contrast, David Dunham was made aware of the potential blind audience in time to make King of Dragon Pass fully playable despite a far higher level of game complexity than any gamebook made thus far.

There are plenty of board games like Back Gammon which I'd dearly love to have on the iPHONE. Pontes Games made a superb version for Windows. Another factor is how isolated you want to be. I don't always want to wear earbuds. Given a game like Stemstumpers, you don't have to but there are other people to consider. How much noise to you feel comfortable injecting into a given situation? Audio games demand more isolation and typically time investment to enjoy. I'm frankly way behind in my creative projects due to being hooked on The Gate, a sidescroller arcade game for Windows. I've probably sunk well over an actual week's time trying to beet that game. Not everyone has that kind of time.

What we haven't seen yet is a massive hit game which includes both blind and sighted players. That possibility is far greater in this new iOS game space than it has ever been before. Diceworld and King of Dragon Pass are perhaps the closest to a smash hit game. Hanging with Friends and Trivia Crack have also brought us more into the sighted fold than we're used to being. It wouldn't surprise me if someone really takes us into that magical experience where cool happens for us at the same time as everyone else. That's what I really find cause to realistically begin to hope for. My book will cover this and a whole lot more in greater detail but it'll likely take a year or two to write.

#12 Looking Down on "Simple" Games

I disagree with the sentiment expressed in the original post that card and dice games are simplistic/of lesser value than audio games.

For me, gaming is about a social connection with people. I have other pastimes I enjoy if I have nothing else to do. If I play a game, I want to be able to play and enjoy it with friends...and not just my blind/visually impaired friends. I want a mainstream game, something universally understood...and, as I see it, a card or dice game is much more likely to be played by my sighted friends/family than an audio game. That's just reality, as I see it at least.

If people enjoy audio games more than card games, that's great. If people enjoy card games more than audio games, that's great. Either way, value is in the eye of the beholder and both genres have their place.

#13 I know i'm going to get lots of flak but:

I know i'm going to get flak for this, but there's a main reason for this:
Audio games are not a lot, and the ones that exist do not have huge veriety of options, and there are just more simplistic games out there that can be played.
First let me begin with this line that current audio game developers are really awesome. I know that they have spent lots of time and probably they've invested a lot to design such great and high-quality audio games. but here's a thing: there are games for sighted people that have just too much veriety. 80 levels? sure. 6 different factions with each having over 30 units, abilities and buildings? sure. 50 types of guns with 200 different attachments and parts to customize? sure. over 12,000 K/M explorable world with hundreds of encounters and puzzles, lots of unique items and craftable things...... and don't get me started on sport games.
Designing such things in an audio game would probably take much more amount of money? and probably lots of time, and an indie developer won't invest to develop such big games.

So there you go, there's your answer i guess.

#14 Audio-only games are bound to be simpler

After reading the last post, it occurred to me that audio-only games can probably never be as complex as some of the games sighted people play. If it's true that those video games have a lot of characters shooting or doing something else at once, that might be much too complicated to program into an audio game, and it might also be confusing for the players who have to take in everything with their ears. So that's probably why audio-only games may seem far simpler than video games, even if they can also be immersive.

#15 bias subject line

To add to this thread the subject is quite bias. Look at the subject line. Card games, not all of them anyway are simple. Spades or cribbage? And not all audio games are cool. I've played some horrible ones that have sucky music, sucky acting and sucky sounds that are like at 8 bit just so the person can save space on the app. I stick to card and trivia games for brain exercise and that's the rite move for me as I want to maintain the high IQ I apparently have. Lol!

Take care to all.

#16 console gaming.

I've said this in a post already, but I'm a console gamer, and I'm totally blind. I'm more of an audio gamer myself. The card games are played out like big hair in the 80's in my opinion. But to each their own I guess. I'd like to see gta sa, on an audio platform though I've played the hell out of that game when i had my ps2 hooked up in the early 2000's As for playing audio games, most of them are a bit to easy for me, because I'm used to playing games with sighted people. And If you have a stereo headset, for a home console, BOOM!!!!!! Free audio game. How do you think I get down on gta 5 and games like that. The only game I don't use a stereo headset for are fighting games like killer instinct. I'm already competing in torniments with that game. sooo, do what you will with this post.

#17 I'm sorry folks but

I'm sorry to break this to some of you, whether you want to hear this or not, but the fact of the matter is, some of us have grown up around game consoles like PSX and others. personally I really want to see more games like rock on be made accessible so we can play with the main stream community, at the same time and online. The reason I'm not a fan of these card games is some of them you can't play online, and most of the main stream community doesn't play them. I don't like being put into a category just because we have to use voiceover, and reckon has really come out and changed the landscape of audio gaming. like I said, I would like to see more of this kind of game setup verses more boring card knockoffs and dice type games.

#18 to add to this thread

I would also like to point out to one poster on here who always seems to find something in an audio game to pick at, not everyone is going to be at your high standard level, especially some of the people who have just started using an iPhone. why do you seem to always hold everyone to your high standard when clearly some aren't at that level?

#19 I'm going with brandon.

I'm not the type of person who sides with people, unless the points made have me not wanting to stay in the middle, but I like what Brandon is saying. Some of us have grown up around consoles, I wont talk s**t to those who haven't, but It would seem as though Brandon and I have come to an agreement about this particular subject. Shoutout to Brian Mcglashan by the way.

#20 This comes down to opinion and taste, no one is right or wrong.

This whole thing comes down to taste, no one here is right or wrong. This is why we have that awesome thing called choice. If you like console games, have fun and play them, and by all means, encourage the developers to make an iOS version that is accessible so you can have equal access. I've heard demos of some consol games like GTA 5 and I was blown away. At the same time, some folks might just want a quick card game while waiting for a ride, or if they have a few minutes to spare and they don't have a pare of earbuds handy. There is absolutely nothing in the world wrong with that. When you say one thing is better than the other, that's an opinion, and you're certainly entitled to that. The fact is that this, again, comes down to choice. Why not just let people play the games they want and just get on with life.

#21 Thank you.

You're absolutely right. I've stated my opinion, I'm glad we all have an opinion. I've played a few of the card games. Hell I thought desteno or however the hell you spell it was a great set of games. I'll give anything a try.

#22 title of this thread shoudl change and a bit more

This thread is also bias as well. Look at the subject line as I stated, learn to analyze as some of us did in our psych and assessment building classes we were forced to take. Read my post above for my reasoning.

Also although it would be nice if video games were made accessible for their iOs counter parts I don't think it's practical or possible as there is a lot going on at once and audio emersion is not always possible.

#23 hostility?

What I don't understand is why some of these comments have some sort of undercurrent of hostility. They're only games, folks! Play what you enjoy playing, surely? Personally I think a lot of this is generational. I grew up with text adventures and enjoy those games as a consequence. I do like some audiogames such as Audiodefence, but you can't really play that on a bus or train as someone said earlier on in this thread. Card games are not all simple. Try Cribbage Pro if you want to access a mainstream one that is actually rather difficult, like cribbage itself. Personally I don't mind so much being put into a blindness category if there's a good game at the end of it. then again, I'm not a hard core gamer playing against friends all over the world. Instead, games are something to do when I have a moment. Blind people, like sighted people, have different priorities.

#24 Keep one more thing in mind

Club AppleVis Member

A lot of audio games take up a ton of space. Say you take a game like that which was mentioned above with dozens of worlds and hundreds of objects to find, 250 guns and different attachments, you get the idea. How big of a file would that be to take up space on your iPhone? Sure, they could lower the sound quality, but then who would want to play it? Certainly not me! I love playing audio games, but there's only so many audio games that can fit on my phone at once, and I want ones with good sound.

#25 Games

Just as some of you have grown up around consoles, others of us have grown up around card games, board games, and word games. It's what we enjoy. It's personal preference, and neither is right or wrong. But the tone of this post seems to put down what are referred to as "simplistic" games. Personally, I enjoy card and dice games and will continue to play them and support the developers. Instead of bringing negativity and putting down people for what games they enjoy, go play the ones you like and encourage other developers to make their games accessible.

#26 This poster is known for not

This poster is known for not saying a positive thing about anything iOs which is why I'm not surprised they got the reaction they got even from me and those of us who don't believe in bias posts like this one.

#27 simplistic card games

I can't help observing the irony that as soon as this post labelled card games as simplistic, someone posted an entry about Shark bridge in the IOS App Directory. Bridge is anything but simple. Like Cribbage, it's a tremendous intellectual exercise. In a similar way, chess has no cool audio but it could hardly be said to be simple.

#28 Sure seems short sighted to me

I do rather think the subject line of the thread needs to be changed so that it's not so antagonistic. if I didn't know better, I'd say this was done on purpose, to spark debate. A debate is ok, but suggesting that someone is basicly stupid for liking a certain type of card game is just right out. It shouldn't happen here. Everyone is equal, no matter what kind of game you like to play.

#29 Ease

I think that the general overall theme of games for any player, sighted or not, is ease and relaxation. A game is designed to be enjoyable and relaxing, and whilst I, like many, love a good audio game adventure, I think they're a little stressful to play at times. Sometimes, a simpler card game is just a more relaxed option.

#30 Card games vs. Audio games

One more thing to keep in mind. Card games, dice games, word games and others that may seem "simplistic" and "boring" for those who grew up playing console games and the like, have something going for them that audio games will never have. This is accessibility to Braille users. Not only can my deaf and blind friends play these "simplistic" and "boring" offerings, but so can I, using my Braille display. I can play these games on the bus, in meetings, while waiting on hold on the phone. While I do like playing audio games from time to time, they're a no-go if I need to be aware of things going on around me. Those who live on their own or who don't have family commitments might not realize this, but audio games are much more difficult to play while also keeping an ear out for a family member who wants something. Just a few more thoughts to add to the Big Muddy.

#31 This whole topic is irrelevant

Club AppleVis Member

A comparison would be asking why do most people use uppercase letters and some don't. Sorry. That was mean.

#32 A new theme would help

One thing about games that I personally find rather tiresome is the way they've gotten stuck in fantasy themes. I'm burned out on dragons and demons, witches and wizards, knights and ninhjas, elves, trolls, weapons, warriors and worlds.
For me the games I'd like to see are more of those that build skills one could potentially use in real llife.
For example, a truly fun immersive audio experience would be binaural street crossings, starting with simple intersections and ending with freeways that one would of course never cross in the real world with a cane or dog. I can just hear those air brakes screeching now or the whisper of an electric car before it mows the unwary player down. You could get killed multiple times in the game while sharpening your mobility skills for the real world.
Another fun game would be to play police dispatcher with multiple calls and emergencies all simyultaneously happening, and you, the gamer need to get the message to the right car in time, while other orders are being canceled or put on hold. Would sharpen your ability again to multitask in the real world.
A third idea is a game devoted to a hard sci-fi theme, where you have to creat experiments and test hypothesis. I'll have to think some on how such a game could be crafted, but it would be a different theme, which is my point.
My last idea is about the reality that many of us blind people are terrible at math. There are many games to teach algebra concepts to kids; why can't someone design a VO-compatible game for us that will sharpen those skilss?
I'm not saying all games should have an educational purpose. I am saying that newer themes would bbring new excitement to the community.

#33 Driving Simulators

There are only a few driving simulators on the app store for blind people, aka gamers, but there should be like a bus sim or something where you have to see if you can drop off people in the given amount of time or something.

#34 not always true

I definitely prefer the action based games. While I enjoy card games and the like, because I can play them when I have only a few seconds, I love more sophisticated audio games. I would love to see more of these in the future.

#35 depends on the game!

Hi,
I am utterly and thoroughly bored with dice, LOL. I'm picky about my games. I can't play The Nightjar for instance, because I've hit a brick wall at a certain point that I can't do at all, to the point where the game has become nothing but gnawing at that specific area. When you play the same level over and over again, it gets wearing. But I love musical games, like Aurifi and smackme, all the games that they're sadly abandoning, and I love story based games. Freeq was awesome for me. On PC I like muds, and wish I could find an IOS equivalent. I think I have trouble with the fine control needed for most audio games, but I still jump at the chance to play a new one. And I play a few card games, if they grab my interest. I like uno, can't find that free on IOS either, and I really like word games for something to do while waiting for something.

#36 My thoughts

I have tried a few audio games, but they are more expensive than card games. This is because audio games are intended mostly for blind people and they have to be made with a lot of precision. I find them not very exciting, and the storylines seem to be too repetitive. I do not much like card games either because they can become boring. The games I like are the mainstream games that are a little different. Games that I keep coming back to are games like A Dark Room which is so different from both audio games and card games. I hope that more games become accessible, and I will try just about anything. All I am saying to the person who originally posted this thread is that I think the answer to your question is that everyone is different. Not all people will enjoy killing zombies in audio games, and some people just do not see a point in playing a dice game. I think everyone should be respected, and generalisations should not be made.