Hi everyone. I thought I'd take this opportunity to tell you a little of my experiences after dipping my tentative toe back into the windows world and what I discovered.
So, a hotly contested subject on AppleVis is accessibility of mainstream games, whether they can be made accessible and even if they should be made accessible. After watching the firefight I thought I'd take a little delve and bought myself an xbox. My experiences with the xbox fall outside the subject of this post and the remit of the AppleVis website so I'll not talk about them here however, as part of this experience, I used bootcamp to create a windows partition.
When first getting onto windows, an OS I've not used for almost 15 years, a feeling of dread came over me. Yet another new system to battle my way into with no real understanding of what success looks like. We get this a lot when trying to learn new skills that aren't mainstream.
After a couple of days and installing NVDA I realised something... Windows accessibility with NVDA is far easier, far more intuitive than Mac OS. There is no real need for a modifier like the VO combination of option and control to be held down all the time, or to switch modes. It's simply move through items with the cursor keys or tab and that's it... It was so easy to use that I felt I was missing a trick.
Returning to Mac OS, I realised just how convoluted, bloated and flawed VoiceOver is as a screen reader and I thought about why this might be. We have to recall that screenreader existed on windows a long time before VoiceOver ever came to Mac. It was always going to be at a disadvantage. The trouble is now, for me at least, is I've not made the distinction between voiceover on Mac (a useable but clunky solution) and that of VoiceOver on iOS (absolute genius and the gold standard of portable accessibility).
Anyway, these were my thoughts. Of course it's more than the accessibility that makes a system work and so far, I like windows, I can get tasks done quicker using the search in Cortana which is a key press away. There is just one piece of software I can't yet get for windows which is the latest scrivener, but as soon as that comes along, I think I'm jumping ship to a far more responsive and more pleasurable setup that doesn't give me the 'busy' feedback on java websites, doesn't need us to drill up and down through levels and is basically better, in my view.
But this is personal opinion. I'd really like to know your opinion. Windows users, how do you find it? Those of you with experience on both platforms, how do they stack up in terms of accessibility against one another and I'm not just talking screenreader, but ease of use of each system?
I'm not looking to start a whole Mac windows war thing, I'm just asking for your views. In mine, windows works better for me than Mac, I only wish I'd discovered this sooner.
Comments
I love both.
I use mac desktop in my college library, and windows laptop in my home. both have their ups and downs. two things I love about mac is I can sink my apple products, and built in accessibility. In windows, I love NVDA screen reader.
Depends on the PC
This depends on the type of PC you buy. Remember that Windows is sold on a wide range of computers ranging from low to high quality. If you buy a business laptop brand like a Lenovo Thinkpad, Dell Precision or HP EliteBook, you'll probably get a great Windows experience out of the box. Before the 2016 Macbook Pro and its garbage butterfly keyboard, I would have stated that Apple laptops had the best build quality. The failure rate of Macbooks from 2016 to 2019 surpassed even budget Acer ultrabooks. It wasn't just the keyboards that were failing on those laptops; screens and SSDs were failing within the first year of ownership too. Apple was charging super high-end prices for Acer ultrabook-level quality control. The new 16-inch Macbook Pro is a step in the right direction but it remains to be seen if it matches the mid-2015 Macbook Pro in reliability.
My next computer ill be a mac
My next computer ill be a mac mini as I have a keyboard and a tv I can use as a screen. Since I do voiceover and podcast work I think for me the mac OS is quite good for what it can be used for. I just created a project on it of which I'm very proud. It's no big deal but still.
Take care
Moving Back To Windows
I have the benefit of multiple computer systems here thus multiple operating systems.
When it comes to accessibility so many operating systems have come so far so I think the key point here is understanding the strengths and weaknesses of each, how much one is prepared to "Sit Down And Learn" an operating system or even how much one likes to use their computer <smile>.
The Mac has some wonderful accessibility tricks with VoiceOver and one of my favourites is navigation and manipulation via the Trackpad on my Mac machines which fits in well given my experience with IOS devices, I can use man of the same gestures and so on to use VoiceOver on the Mac as I can to use VoiceOver on my iPhone or iPad.
Windows 10 is the best Windows Operating system Microsoft have ever come up with and I'm very sorry its taken Microsoft so long to get to this point but who cares about that, accessibility for Windows is at its near best and can only get better.
It has been a good while since I have used NVDA but what I have used lately is Microsoft's own Narrator Screen Reader which - in Windows 10 - is totally unrecognisable from former versions one may have used in Windows 7.
For those who wish to follow up the topic of Narrator Screen Reader do a search for Narrator in the AFB Access World publication from AFB.
So could I stop using a Mac tomorrow and just use a Windows 10 machine - or in my case a couple of Windows machines -? Yes I could but I would be up against a couple of problems I would need to solve.
Firstly there doesn't seem to be any good Twitter clients for Windows around any longer, I use Twitter all the time and you can find me @grtdane
Then there is all the recording I do. Unfortunately Windows still does not handle the professional recording parameters I use such as high sampling rates so I would need to go and find drivers.
I use Audio Hijack on the Mac to manipulate audio and I wonder how I would get on under Windows performing just a few of the many tasks Audio Hijack does with the mac.
Yes there are "Workarounds" with a Windows system but they are far from perfect. For example I can deliberately capture the Voice Synthesiser output of the Screen Reader and nothing else, as far as I know doing such a thing under Windows is very problematic.
So let the discussion continue and here's to everyone and whatever you choose to use as your operating system. I know people who use Google Chromevox compatible machines and that's something I would really like to get into myself if I can find the extra few hours in what seem like 50 hour days sometimes.
I just got a Mac and...
I tried finding a Windows Laptop for school and I had such a miserable time. I don't like the Surface Pro and the Surface Laptop is a good option but I use the numpad religiously, especially with NVDA. The numpad is nice to have on Voiceover but not anywhere near as necessary, especially with quicknav. I realize I could get an external numpad but that's yet another accessory I have to balance as I carry it around in an already too-heavy bag. I also had serious issues finding a Windows machine with decent onboard audio. Bluetooth would clip or the line output would be awful. Most of the time it was both. Call me neurotic but I think you shouldn't have to buy a bunch of accessories to replace the built-in ones just to get the experience you want.
That being said, I love Windows and NVDA. I am a productivity king on there and I could never give it up. So I bought a MacBook for school and will be keeping my Windows desktop. Both systems have great advantages and I have the luxury of using both so I'm going to use both. I can edit movies on my own with iMovie and do math using LaTeX and a Braille display on Mac OS and I can set up formatting for an MLA document in MS Word with 4 keystrokes and check my email using Outlook in seconds on Windows.
Why I'm Moving Back to Windows
Hello. Like others have said I too was a long time Windows user. I used JAWS in school from first grade up to tenth grade. In 2014 I got my first Mac. At first, I found it really difficult to master. MS word wasn't accessible so finding a replacement was hard. After figuring things out I never looked back. In 2017 I got a MBP with Bootcamp and Windows 10. I use JAWS and just recently started learning NVDA. I like having the option to use both systems. One reason why I love the Mac so much is because, in my opinion, it's simple to use. One thing I hate about Windows is the tree view. I like interacting with things because most of the time VO doesn't jump around. I like having the ability to use both systems when I want. I prefer the Mac, but like the option of using Windows.
going back to windows
your absolutely right. I too am heading back to windows, i'm going to boot camp it onto my mac and write over the mac os and never use mac again.
Use case scenarios
I think the main focus of this thread is use case scenarios which fits well with Apple's ethos. Windows, it would seem is a good all rounder with good flexibility however the Mac is very good at specific tasks, mainly media creation.
When we take into consideration the screen readers, however, this is where it gets a bit more confusing. For me, and my admiddidly brief play with both systems my conclusion is, I wish NDVA was available on the Mac. that, to me, would be the perfect solution. I realise that the file and folder structures are probably different from one OS to the other, as mentioned, but the simplicity of NDVA really impresses me.
Case in point, I was just trying to get something from the Mac app store... It's a car crash of an experience. Simply pressing tab doesn't take you to the search results, you have to drill down using the ham fisted keystroke which is ridiculous for even long time users to use, and then, after hitting 'get' you still need to find the button to actually download the app which I can't seem to find by simply navigating the page, rather I have to do a vo F search for either 'get' or 'redownload' dependent on my previous relation to the app. It is by no means intuitive and I think this is the point that frustrates me so much... Apple are brilliant when it comes to an intuitive interface on IOS and iPad OS but with VoiceOver on Mac, it's idiocicratic, confusing and inconsistent. I do understand that they were able to bake in VoiceOver at the conception of IOS, or as close to the start as it matters, and VoiceOver was kinda bolted on to an existing OS but still, if I were to put an elderly person down in front of a Mac to teach them how to use VoiceOver, I'd be scratching my head. NVDA and narrater on the other hand are very much point and shoot screen readers.
I know users of VO will say that there is Quicknav, which is all well and good but it's not appropriate for all occasions and one should not have to jump through hoops to create simplicity of use. Also, the number of times I accidentally turned on quicknav when rapidly navigating through a webpage caused me to turn the shortcut off, also the 'ignoring next key press' thing is sending me nuts...
*Takes deep breath*... Sorry, that turned into a bit of a rant which wasn't my intentionn for the thread.
All I'm say is, apple accessibility team, if you are reading this, take some pointers from NVDA and narrater. Using apple products is supposed to be easy and fun, not an exercise in frustration and patients... For the most part though, it's fine, it's just little corners of the operating system that just baffle me with the complexity of interaction.
Okay, I'll be quiet now.
Oliver,
Oliver,
I agree with points in last comment. I use NVDA for most things However, Narrator currently outpaces VO. Like Vo, Narrator was a secondary thought. Not baked in like iOS.
Apple really should have a dedicated group just concentrate on accessibility for next couple of releases. Compile a list of known issues. Which is many. Then prioritize. My understanding is Apple’s team structures have really changed. Preventing the attack and conquer method. I myself would prefer no new features, for a more stable OS.
I'm certain that there is
I'm certain that there is frustration in the apple core from people who do still adhere to Job's famous perfectionism. Unfortunately apple has become rather bloated, a victim of its own success. Sadly, as anyone who knows about these things, complexity always exceeds scalability which may well be the routes of the continuing issues.
Anyway, I'm not here to apple bash, it's still pretty cool. I think they've had a shake up in the way that they will be alpha and beta testing allowing specific features to be turned on and off during the refinement process. I hope that this includes VoiceOver and don't see why it would not so targeting and eliminating these persistent bugs may finally be on the horizon... Call me a fool of an optimist.
Moving From Mac To Windows
Actually there would be a further problem I would have to solve if I were to dump Mac OS completely in favour of Windows. Just remding people that I use both Mac and Windows machines here and I don't favour one Operating System over another, I very much like both.
Anyway back to the poiint, the other big issue for me if I dumped MAC OS is the reliance I now have on the integration of my Mac machiens with my iPhone using Facetime and Messages App.s
For those who don't know, the Mac allows good control of your iPhone allowing the making and answering of calls via your mobile from your Mac and the sending/receiving of SMS Messages etc thus.
I use a Headset connected to my Mac machines at my desktops to make and receive calls with Facetime, Facetime via the iPhone and other Apps.
I'm sure in time Windows 10 will have full and reliable integration like this with iPhones and other devices but at the present time such integration is patchy at best in my experience.
I have managed to integrate Windows 10 to a certain extent with my Android phones so the world of phone integration with Windows 10 is a promising work in progress.
Narrator
I do like my Windows 10 but Voiceover is better than Narrator on voices. The quality of the voices of Narrator is bad. Lucky for me I have jaws and I use their voices. If Narrator had the same voices than jaws or voiceover be cool. Hope that Microsoft trash Narrator and just purchase jaws and add it to all PC. That is my wish in case anyone from Microsoft is listening.
Narrator and VoiceOver
Firstly regarding the voice of Narrator, one can change these and I believe that other voices apart from the Microsoft voices supplied with Windows 10 can be used.
The Microsoft voices with . Windows 10 aren't too bad these days, certainly far more acceptable to listen to and work with than they were with past editions of Windows.
As for VoiceOver? I chose to use a third party voice which - in my opinion - offers far better options than Apple ever have offered and probably ever will offer, I'm talking here of the Infovox iVox voices for Apple Mac by Acapella group which are absoolutely outstanding, they can be purchased for Android too.
As I have made plain in previous posts, I don't like comparing Apple Mac to Windows as its like comparing Apples to Oranges, if you like one or both and you're comfortable then that's the main thing isn't it.
No
I check. You only get 3 voices.
Hi, I agree with you Rockbank
Hi, I agree with you Rockbank, I use the iVox voices on my Macbook pros and they are 100% perfect. I, like you, do not compair mac to windows as they are night and day. If you like both of them, fine. If you like windows, good, if the other is true, whatever works. If you switch from mac to windows, fine if that works for you. I personally have used a mac for the past decade, and while it is not perfect, it has been better then what I was using at the time with my win XP machine. Sure windows 10 is great, but for the time being, I won't use win. If that works, then good. I won't bash any OS. If it works for your use case, then fine.
Microsoft Seeing AI
Hi everyone. I'm back to say something about photos. Granted I only have light perception and am just now slowly but surely getting the hang of photos on my iPhone. But I downloaded the app mentioned in the subject line, and cannot recommend it highly enough. This app does exactly as advertised, and the fact that there are multiple functions all rolled into it is really nice. I know there are others out there like it and at some point I might try them out for comparison, but I love this multi-purpose app and think it perhaps should be a requirement for every single iOS user. It's too bad that the app isn't available on Android yet or perhaps anywhere else, because a sighted neighbor friend uses Android and has recently been very impressed with my scanning abilities. So to Saqib and others at Microsoft who worked on Seeing AI and are working on it, thank you. You are truly revolutionizing this technology. I realize this isn't a Microsoft website, but just had to throw in my 2 cents about their app. In addition, I just listened to one of Hadley's new videos where the guy seemed a bit surprised that Microsoft would make an iOS app.
Microsoft Narrator, Moving Back To Windows
I have 11 voices I can use with Narrator here and I'm running the latest version of Windows 10
There have been some dramatic changes - all for the better - to Narrator over the past year or so.
Incidentally, NVDA now uses the Microsoft voices by default, the same voices as Narrator uses and yes, you can add more voices to both Narrator and NVDA to suit your tastes.
Where
Where did you get them? How much? I do not think I shall be paying for voices when it suppose to be free.
Where
Perhaps you could be a little more specific, where did I get what?
This thread is covering many different subjects.
Which voices are you refering to here - I am making the assumption you are refering to voices -.
If you are indeed refering to the Microsoft voices then you will find what you need in Windows Settings under Narrator.
You can find the Acapella Infovox voices for the Mac by using Google
I was interested to read through this thread that people consider the voices that the Mac - and iPhone for that matter - are supplied with to be premium voices? Nothing could be further from the truth and you will find this out for yourself when you try the Acapella Infovox voices, its the old saying isn't it, "You Get What You Pay For".
Acapella Infovox
How much for Acapella Infovox ? I use jaws 2020 and like the voices. iPhone voices are prime voices and some great and come free with VO. If I have to purchase voices for Microsoft narratoris not OK. I am quite happy with VO voices in my iPhone. I do like windows and I will never change but Microsoft could provide the voices for free instead of us purchasing them. They have the money or like I stated just spend 2 or 3 million to purchase jaws.
I moved back
hi all, I have boot camped my 2015 imac and put windows on it, and i couldn't be happier. windows responds so much more quickly then mac os ever did, and pages load faster on the web, with no lock ups or busy busy busy all the time. it such an enjoyable experience to not have to hear busy or wait for slow web pages to load.
Holger... The iVox voices are
Holger... The iVox voices are based on credits. You purchase them, then buy the voice with credits and activate each voice license. Look it up on google or assistivewears site.
Maintaining Your Mac
Hi.
From what you have described with your Mac, browsing with OS etc it would appear that your Mac may need some attention in the form of maintanence if you are prepared to do that.
Whilst the "Busy" annoyance still is not entirely illiminated it now shouldn't bother you all that often.
I consider Safari, Google Chrome etc with VoiceOver on a Mac one of the joys and highlights of using the Mac.
I like to have access to browsing under both Mac OS and Windows as I often find that one browser picks up what the other missed.
Regarding Bootcamp? I have never used it but I do use VMWare Fusion, a Mac App that allows the user to run the Mac OS and Windows alongside each other so one can switch between the 2 Operating Systems at the touch of a keystroke, absolutely amazing to be able to switch from your favourite voice in Voiceover to your favourite settings in JAWS etc, to work on a project under your favourite Windows App and then flick over to yoru favourite Mac Twitter client to fire off a Tweet etc.
Under VMWare Fusion both systems are entirely entigrated meaning you could say copy to the clipboard using the Mac OS and paste the contents into your document etc under Windows.
vm ware
i'm not a big fan of vm ware fusion I prefere bootcamp due to the fact that windows just seems to run so much better under it.
VMWare Fusion
VmWare Fusion has come a long way.
I agree that quite some time ago VmWare Fusion was irratic in behaviour, sluggish and prone to crash.
To the credit of the developers VmWare Fusion is often updated, these updates have shown great improvements in performance and compatibility between the 2 Operating Systems being run at the time.
Of course if you like Bootcamp then continue to use it but I find that VmWare Fusion both saves me a lot of time and makes me more productive by having everything I could ever need at my fingertips.
The trade-off here is that one has to have a reasonable amount of resources at one's disposal to make good use of VmWare Fusion such as a reasonable amount of memory etc.
Insideone windows 10 brail tablet
Has anyone tried one of these?It's basically a tablet with brail included running the windows 10 OS
It also raises another point about windows, it can be used on a range of machines and allows for some customisation of products over that of Mac.
I bet you it will be 10 times
I bet you it will be 10 times more expensive, Ok a bit of an exaduration but probably not by much given how tech for the blind tends to sometimes be over priced and way under done, and cheaply made in some other cases.
back to VMWare
I haven't messed with it in a little over a year but I never could get VMWare to work well for me either. I couldn't get the keys remapped correctly even when it showed in the VMware settings that I had set an insert to work as a jaws or NVDA key it would never work.
VmWare Fusion For Mac
If I had those experiences then I wouldn't be too happy either and wouldn't be singing the praises of the VmWare Fusion Software.
Browsers with NVDA
Microsoft Edge and Google Chrome work with NVDA. Firefox works as well.
About NVDA
I have been using NVDA for a few months now. It works with the standard apps on a Windows computer. Developers of NVDA also make NVDA Addons that you could download to make NVDA easier to use with apps. Out the box though, it works really well. Plus, the support team is really good as well.
NVDA With Windows 10
I am glad to see that an Acapella Voices Add-in for NVDA is also available allowing users to use the excelennt quality Acapella voices with this app.
VmWare Fusion, Run Windows along side OS on your Mac
Here I am back with a more helpful and detailed reply <smile>
Yes I did have problems with mapping the insert key to Windows in the past which seem to be resolved now.
There were workarounds I used that others may wish to try.
The most obvious is to disable VoiceOver itself when using Windows and turn VoiceOver on again when toggling back to the Mac, arguably a little inconvenient but its only a keystroke and you can set things up on the Mac side so you are alerted of anything important.
The quick way of course is to use the VoiceOver "Pass Through" command of VO-tab which allows the next key combination to be passed through directly to the system rather than being acted upon by VoiceOver itself.
I quit using vmware fusion
I quit using vmware fusion about r3 years ago. It lagged, and I hated using it besides my mac. Sure having 1 machine was helpful, but at the same time not so helpful when milliseconds literally mattered in what I was doing on the windows side.
vmWare Fusion
I read this with interest as its all very odd.
I have been using an Apple Mac of one sort or another now for over 13 years alongside Windows machines.
I have been using VmWare Fusion for almost as long as I have been using Mac machines and - given that I use both dedicated Mac and Windows machines - I can get a reasonable feel as to how VmWare Fusion works with a Mac which is - in my case - very well.
Sure, VmWare Fusion has had teaving problems along the way no denying but performance has never been an issue, Windows on the Mac using VmWare Fusion has worked for me as well as it does on a dedicated machine running Windows and I can assure you that if this weren't the case I wouldn't still be happy to talk about how good the experience of running VmWare Fusion has been.
I am on a number of different Mac forums and again, no one has ever disputed how good the performance is of VmWare Fusion on their particular machines.
Having said all that however I do appreciate that VmWare Fusion presents a lot of settings and options to the user and if the user does decide to change one or more of these then the consequences can be hard to predict so its best to let VmWare Fusion do its own thing and make a backup of your Windows system before you start changing things.
you say you haven't used VmWare Fusion for around 3 years/ That's quite a time in the lifetime of this Application.
Don't get me wrong, I take note of everything you have said and I don't disbelieve it but I just find it so odd that I have not seen reports describing the symptoms you have described so the question is now just how many different Mac groups and forums should I subscribe to? I thought that 3 was a good number but maybe it should be 10 or more <smile>.
Mac; Logic Pro X/Garigeband, Windows 10; NVDA/JAWS for word
Hello
I have both a 2017 Macbook air and 2018 Dell XPS 13 and I use them both for very different things.
My XPS is used for browsing the internet with firefox, and word processing with the free app Jarte or Notepad or even wordpad.
My Macbook is used for working with music on logic pro or garigeband depending on what I have the time for.
I am in complete agreement about Voiceovers converluted setup for navigation of webpages. I know some people prefer to go through elliments by group, but for me the hole idea of quicknav is good, but it seems kind of silly to have to turn off quicknav just to read by line because the other roter option doesn't work the same way. Also I miss all of my firefox addons. Noscript to prevent unwanted sites from loading, a browser gard to protect everything and extra sounds which plays navigation sounds for click on page, page loded, download start, finished and error sounds.
This is just my thoughts.
PS:
The iPhone is a technalogical genious, though.
PPS:
Firefox does, in fact work on iOS.