Blind novelists... Do not buy a Mac...

I love the iPhone but I am not a Mac user. Forgive me if this is a dumb question. But is Pages not able to deal with Microsoft Word files?

I totally get it. In general the accessibility of macOS has gone downhill for the last few years, and though new features/voices etc are added, long-standing bugs have not been fixed and new ones have made navigation and accessing content extremely annoying, and sometimes actually not doable in certain cases.

However, work is being done to fix these things, and I'm sure I can speak for not only myself when I say that certain applications I use are only accessible on the Mac and thus, I'm stuck on that platform for the time being. For me, it's still much much better than windows, where the screen reader that comes with the actual OS is not really practically usable, and if you want to use anything other than Ward processing or email you almost certainly have to make custom scripts for it in order to use it with Jaws. I grew up on windows, and used it for years, but even with its shortcomings, for me, Mac OS is Still a better experience.

There are ways you can get around both of the issues you mentioned above though. Let's start with the OS. What macOS are you running? And what laptop are you on? Pages does great with word documents and is completely accessible, and text edit is even a more simpler form of that. Safari does have the annoying not responding issue, But Chrome seems to work fairly well, and depending on the OS and Safari version, that can be fixed as well. I'd be happy to help and chat with you more and figure these things out for you

To be blunt, microsofts lack of accessibility on the mac is, microsofts fault. Excel and powerpoint are both accessible and fully usable on mac, they dropped the ball on word, for some reason. However, I did write a book on the mac without problems. Not with word but, there are other alternatives out there, and this is defenetly possible. If word doesn't work then... find another alternative. Maybe it is to switch to pages or other program, maybe to windows. Its really up to you, however this is definitely doable. Is mac os perfect? Of course not, it has bugs, but which os doesn't? I can tell you the same experience in windows that you've had on mac as far as audio editing... its possible on windows but, a lot; and I mean a lot; of pluggins aren't accessible, requiring you to ue ocr... and on the mac... Completely accessible, no need of ocr, etc. At least if we're talking reaper on both platforms, but anyway I digress. Both platforms have their ups and downs, but if something, Ie, word, isn't working for you on mac, try other software.

I personally wouldn’t use the macOS for writing books. I have windows, iOS and android for that.

using a hardware keyboard, which in my experience is essential for a blind writer, is a not very pleasant experience on Android. Combine that with Talkback and you have the no go to writing solution. I've done some basic writing and editing on iOS, but I'm not sure if anything more extensive is viable. Keyboard support is, in some ways, even better than on the Mac, but Word for Mobile isn't quite so easy to use as it is on windows. I'm thinking that Word simply hasn't been well optimized for anything other than Jaws on Windows; even NVDA struggles a bit, and yes, the issues with VoiceOver for Mac are very, very real. Not just with Word; in terms of functionality VO on Mac is almost a different screen reader from its iOS brother, certainly it's more buggy.

I have tested Word on an old 2013 MacBook air, running Big Sir, and am doing just fine.

The problem with writing a book in Word that I see most often, is that people treat it as one document. A book project should be written in multiple parts, each chapter or sub chapter as a separate document.

This is why I never write in Word at all. I prefer Ulysses or Scrivener. Ok, Ulysses cannot create your table of contents, but there are ways to work around this issue.

I really like Markdown XL as used by Ulysses, simply because I find "What you see is what you get" editing to be a giant pain. You can do this later, in a word processor of your choice, if you choose to. If, however you use your mark down correctly, you shouldn't have to.

As things stand right now, I am using a 10-year-old MacBook Air as my daily driver. I've packed away my 2 1/2 year old Windows laptop, simply because I don't need it.

The problem the initial post describes does not occur because VoiceOver "is broken". The problem is Microsoft Word itself which is not optimized very well for VoiceOver. For example, when using Pages, I can open documents iwth more than 1,000 pages inside without problems. Navigation works very smoothly and without any problems. In MS Word, I get "Word not responding" messages all the time as well as navigation inside documents does not work at all for me.
If you really rely on Word, as said because it's the industry standard for professional word processing things, you should use Windows instead. There, screen readers work much better with MS software like Word, Excel, PowerPoint or Access.

Regarding the safari not responding issue, there, it's exactly the same. Not VoiceOver itself is causing the problem there, but WebKit that has some problems which have not been resolved yet.

Windows is quite basic, NVDA is easy to learn and Word works great...so it will be worth it, to be successful on your course.

If you really want a breakdown, I'm starting a degree in Data science or as I like to call it 'a degree in inaccessible software' - I know, it was my choice.

I guess once a bimbo always a bimbo! Or maybe I just love a challenge and relish the oppertunity of things being at least twice as hard for me as for my fellow students?

I've always been under the impression that there are huge great big scripts for Word in JAWS. That's the thing, with JAWS, NVDA Etc. you can at least do something to try and mitigate inaccessibility. Apple just blame Microsoft, which is true - it is there fault, but it leaves us high-and-dry!

Nobody ever wanted to pay for scripting, but it was good that you could get it if you needed it.

At least with DSA, I'll be able to have a full time support worker! Oh joy! I know it works, but...

I wrote 4 novels between 1988 and 1992. Smile. I used Microsoft DOS and WordPerfect. They worked great! reliable, fast, met all my needs, and macros made everything much faster.

And then came windows, and then came MacOS, and everything got slow slow slow, royally unreliable, and filled with bugs, issues and problems. sigh

I wonder if it's possible to go back to DOS.

Bruce

https://debugger.medium.com/you-can-still-use-an-ms-dos-laptop-in-2021-d43fa10a8211

You'll have to sign in to read it though. Thankfully, it's a 'free' article.

Others will chime in with their own findings of course.

I'm currently co-editor of a fiction anthology. I was strongly considering a subscription to Office 365 specifically for this project. But it is posts like these, and many others, that scared me off.

Pages has issues with Word files. In particular, if you use Pages to add comments, then export to Word, Pages incorrectly introduces blank lines near the comments. That was a deal-killer for my anthology editing work.

Instead, I use Pages to read Word files, and add comments and edit in Google Docs. Pages lets me read by sentence and by paragraph, making it superior for reading. And Google Docs exports flawlessly to Word. It's the best of both worlds.

To address Oliver's original issue of writing long format, I use Scrivener. And this is one reason I stay on the Mac and don't return to Windows. In conversations with other blind writers, Scrivener on Windows is inaccessible. Besides macOS, Scrivener also runs on iOS, so my iPhone plus Bluetooth keyboard and headset turn into a portable creative writing platform that goes anywhere.

Oliver, I'm sorry you're struggling with this. As you said, it's one more barrier to functioning in a sighted world. I doubt my comment will help with your immediate problem. But I've found ways to live without Word, and I hope you can too.

Strength to your writing hand.

I used Word Perfect back in college. It worked fine in Windows. MS DOS Had one issue with having to run screen readers in a part of RAM that wasn't always big enough to both allow access to the upper memory and run the screen reader. It was the first 94K or something like that, and it didn't matter how much more RAM you had, the screen reader and the window to access upper memory had to fit in just that. Having the screen reader running in Windows 3X got around all that somehow, until they completely did away with it in XP.
I suppose it is a shame that Voice Over doesn't work so well with the terminal. Unix-like systems can be run a bit like things in the DOS days, if you choose.
As for writing a novel... I think we're really talking about getting one published, or perhaps submitted for a course. Sounds like many hours of screaming in anguish with fistfuls of hair, followed by writing ten-thousand individualized, cover letters, etc. Have fun.

Just some thoughts I have.

I, personally, find Pages rather convulated. VO + J to reach the formatter, there's no easy way to create headings like on MS Word (in Windows, it's Control + Alt + 1 for a Heading Level 1), and focus seems to jump around with long documents.

Microsoft Word straight up doesn't work on MacOS as a VO user. Microsoft Excel only works with spreadsheets that don't have much data. If you rely on these products - and most workplaces and schools/universities do - stick with Windows. Trust me, Windows isn't that bad. JAWS and even NVDA work great with MS Office and Google products. Not so much on the VoiceOver side.

I personally find navigating with JAWS/NVDA more intuitive - Alt + N to insert, less jumping to toolbars and back to the document. But that's just my personal opinion. I learnt Windows while starting my business degree back in 2021 and it was manageable, I just had to get some training on Windows shortcuts specifically. There's a lot of resources on the web, though.

I definitely agree it's better to write chapters individually, but maybe creating it as a one document for beta readers to provide comments and feedback. Not sure how it works in terms of publishing, whether that's self-publishing or traditional.

Yes, if you're going to use Word, it's probably wiser to get a cheap Windows laptop plus NVDA or JAWS. But I think Oliver's dilemma is that he has already started, and smart cowboys don't switch horses mid-stream. This was my dilemma as well. I needed a solution that worked and didn't have time to acquire new computers and software and re-develop all my old Windows+JAWS+Word muscle memory.

I understand where you're coming from.

I restarted uni as a blind person in 2021 with MacOS. It was a beyond frustrating experience. I think Numbers was my final straw - trying to use it for a financial literacy class and, later, it completely stopped reading my D&D character sheets (off the topic of uni).

I was lucky dad had a desktop laying around so I switched to Windows. Now, I'm studying part-time and online because that's what works for me. But I definitely did the whole learning a new OS, screen readers, and managed uni. I self-taught myself NVDA and most of JAWS and felt like Windows was a breath of fresh air compared to how frustrating I found MacOS.

So it is definitely possible to learn a new OS and screen reader while studying, if you have the time. The thing is that, you will need MS Office products for uni assignments (especially group assignments) and for the workplace. That is part of the reason why I learnt Windows.

and that's why I hate the whole Mac for everything or Windows for everything points-of-view. It just isn't true and if people ask, tell them the truth.

Some tools are better for some jobs for most people...good luck!

You are my hero. 🤩

@Chamomile
I am in agreement with you, that Windows and NVDA are indeed a breath of fresh air. Especially considering Apple's latest round of "updates". I won't speak of Freedom Scientific though.
I have allergies..... 🤧

I know the meta struggle, I just never had a name for it until today.

I use Google Docs for any track changes or comments work. But the native Google Docs keyboard shortcuts were designed by a madman. If you're thinking about using Docs, and you haven't already read my blog, here it is for your reference. Specifically, note the AppleScript I wrote to jump to and read the next or previous comment.

I haven't used Google Docs in about 5 or more years. Is it any better? Any worse? We're talking pre-covid here. 😅

Docs is a challenge to use, and there have been no significant changes that I'm aware of. I'm able to use Docs for two reasons. One, I use it regularly and I've developed the necessary muscle memory. Two, the blog I cited is a handy reference for anything I might forget.