iOS 8 beta and Apple’s NDA
Hi all. Apple has just released IOS 8 or was it 8.1 for public. I think a new mac thing was released too, but I'm not sure on that part. Now that the IOS 8 is public, has anyone tried it and have any updates on new accessability features or bugs or stuff that works? I'm just wondering before/if I decide to install it on my Ipod 5.
Unless they've made a major decision change, IOS 8 won't be released to the public until the fall.
IOS 8 is a private beta. some people are testing it but they can't talk about it. You can register for a developer account and get it but that costs $99 a year and right now the software is full of bugs. its not ready for the regular user.
Nothing on my end. Applevis editors themselves would know if it had been released. Also, I think this is somehow against the NDA.
Nope, not being released until the faul.
That's what I thought.
Hi everyone. I'm surprised posts like this keep coming up, we've seen it with new Mac software, as well as IOS software. Clearly at the top of the page, after the WWDC announcement is Please don't post any information about the upcoming IOS or something to that effect. Are we that itchy to get our hand son accessibility improvements or the same old bugs some of us hammer home each update that have not been fixed? Just curious how this happens. At least no one's revealed anything, I can wait. :)
I'm sure this has already been brought up but remember that we are not aloud to discuss ios8 until it is released to the public. See this thread. May I request that this thread and all replies be removed as soon as enough time has passed for people to see mine? and all topics regarding ios8 be auto fileterd if at all possible to be auto rejected until when ever it's released>
We are in the visual impaired world, that is very different from the normal world.
In the normal world, we have million of websites that are talking about news about ios8.
Also websites that are really important, not only simple communities.
Beta1 is out, and I am very happy to know all the news and improvements, a part of accessibility.
Unfortunately in the visual impaired world, perhaps because we are so special, nothing must absolutely go out, because there is the agreement, that in the normal world exists but people decide to speak about all the news.
I think that, if someone tell us that a new voice is coming, just for example :-), the sun will fall down from the sky, stars will burn forever and ghosts and dragons will destroy all men and women of our planet.
I want to ensure applevis team that I don't want to write nothing and I don't want to continue this discussion. So don't worry, your NDA is saved.
But, as I said, I really think that we are in two different worlds.
I read a comment regarding the visually impaired community and nondisclosure agreements, I have to admit, I agree with the person who posted the comment before mine.
It seriously looks to me as though the visually impaired community see nondisclosure agreements as verses from the Bible. If, and/or when they are violated, lightning will come down from the Heavens, and strike down the violator.
Yes, I understand why they are there, but as the previous poster said, all this information is freely available on several websites, whom most will consider mainstream.
What is wrong with you people! Come on, we are not special in any way. This website is supposed to address concerns regarding the visually impaired and Apple products. we should be able to discuss bugs in beta software, for the beta process is where most of these should be eliminated.
I hate for Apple this editor's, to be gestapo like in their approach to discussion on beta software.
I will say here, I am not a tester of iOS eight Beta, so I am not held to the nondisclosure agreement. At this point in time, iOS eight is not usable by voiceover users. This should probably be fixed in the next beta cycle or two.
If you are reading this, the Apple this editors have decided to be reasonable.
we blind only get what we deserve ...
while there are other blind people to defend the irresponsibility of the apple with its commitment to accessibility, we will never be treated with the same rights as sighted people.
and this is more than proven ...
someone heard the apple talk about Accessibility in the conference wwwc.2014? ?
no, I have not heard.
the apple does not deal with the rights that we have, but only makes us favors ...
and this is the fault of all blind to defend apple irresponsibility.
so I say:
some blind people only get what they deserve ...
If you believe that the AppleVis Editorial Team are acting like the ‘Gestapo’ by asking people to respect Apple’s NDA, AppleVis is not the place for you.
Comments such as that show an ignorance of history and are an insult to the memories of millions of people for whom the Gestapo meant more than not being able to talk on a website about beta software.
As is often the case, things are rarely as black and white as people either claim or would like.
Yes, some mainstream websites disregard Apple’s NDA. However, many others are respecting it. All that this probably demonstrates is that websites have different priorities. For most of those choosing to disregard the NDA, one of the main priorities will be generating advertising revenue. They know that if they don’t breach the NDA, somebody else will, meaning less eyeballs in front of their own content which in turn means less advertising revenue. Basically, it’s all about numbers, and these will outweigh the slim chance of getting a letter from Apple’s legal department. At worst, they might get banned from attending Apple events (Gizmodo being perhaps the most famous to suffer this fate). They might even like the latter, as it’s something which might help raise their profile.
For other websites, acting responsibly and within the law is more important.
In the case of AppleVis, there is another factor to consider. As I have said before, we can hardly expect Apple or third-party developers to treat us with respect if we don’t respect the conditions that they choose to apply to the use of their products.
And, as far as I am personally concerned, knowing that Apple and other developers might actually care about the opinions, experiences and needs of the AppleVis community is always going to be more important than being able to discuss something that’s in a beta version of software but might have gone or be totally different by the time of the final release.
I know from past experience that many people will disagree with my opinion, which of course you are totally free to do. However, as somebody who is charged with protecting the best interests of AppleVis, it’s an opinion that I am more than comfortable holding.
Others may break the law, I won't. Because I do believe and choose to agree to them and because Apple has been incredibly professional when it comes to accessibility. I have no reazons to disrespect their rules. After all, being able to test and report accessibility bugs is more important. If the cost is follow the rules so let's follow the rules.
I would do a filter and delete every post regarding IOS 8 or other software currently affected by NDA unless they are from the editorial team.
Blind, sighted, in a wheel chair, deaf, limbless...All anyone ever gets is what they fight for and never what they deserve.
You say things like Apple does not talk about accessibility in their conference, but you fail to realize that they dedicated an entire 30 minutes of the WWDC conference in 2009 to voiceover when the IPhone 3gs was announced. Steve Jobs himself was on stage explaining what voiceover was and what it was meant to do. Does this have to happen every year? IF so, what have we done to make it necessary for Apple to do it? They have a team dedicated to accessibility, and we can call and email them with ideas, complaints, etc. On top of that, voiceover has been constantly updated and improved.
Do you comprehend that there are dozens, hundreds of blind people fighting for your right to sit at your desk and send a message like the one you just did? You talk about the responsibility of Apple to us. They are a company dedicated to making money before anything else. To think of them as your friend is irresponsible. Our responsibility is to not only find and use things that are accessible, but to also fight as hard as we can, as often as we can to get noticed, be heard, and gain the things we hold dear. We also have a moral responsibility to other blind people around the world. Each one of us who presents a case about accessibility is presenting a case for all blind people.
The same thing goes for a parapalegic who fights for the right to have equal access to buildings or alternative methods of accessibility. They are fighting for their fellow parapalegics as well as anyone else who may be considered disabled.
The truth is that if we don't fight for our rights and the things we want, no one will say we deserve it and just give it to us.
The world is based on effort, not what anyone deserves. That is why a "good" person may be murdered and a "bad" person may be rewarded. That is why a hard working father of three kids may get hit by a car when he tries to bring home dinner and a dictator can rule for decades. That is why a kid who works hard may (MAY) become a success and a Millionare can (can) lose everything.
It is not about what anyone deserves. It is about what we fight for. If each of us got what we deserved, the world would be full of unicorns, lamp posts made of cotton candy, and happy, happy people with nothing to be passionate about.
I figure everyone is eager about ios 8 because of a few factors.
1. We want to know if Accessibility will continue in IOS 8. Due to this, some of us have anxiety and worry about something we feel is out of our control.
2. We want to learn what new accessibility features are available. The reason for this is because we want to get through the learning curve quicker.
3. We want to have a say in how accessibility is implemented. We each have to live with our individual visual impairments and know what we each want to make our lives easier and maybe better. If we wait for someone else to do it, would it be as good?
4. If someone else is working on accessibility, will we get exactly what we each want? How can we if someone else we don't even know is making the changes? How can we know they aren't just messing the current accessibility up?
The truth is that there are alternatives. We can, purchases a developer account, run the betas, and provide feedback to Apple regarding accessibility. This cost $99 and is it worth it? Some of us feel very strongly that our feedback is not listened to while others feel strongly about getting heard no matter the effort or cost.
Has anyone actually called Apple Accessibility to inquire if discussing IOS beta features are ok? I assume (Assuming makes an ass out of you and me) that the Applevis team has done so and are just following the guidelines put forth. I ask the question because sometimes certain features are allowed to be discussed if it directly impacts a minority's lives. In this case, voiceover as a program has directly impacted pretty much anyone coming on this site. Because it is one feature of a wider operating system, and in some cases, us knowing how the feature has been altered, improved, etc. is important to our continued use, discussing and providing feedback might not be breaking the agreement.
Now, I am in no way suggesting that we disregard what Applevis has very clearly stated. Nor am I stating that we ignore Apple's policies. I am only suggesting that we call Apple Accessibility, or email them, and inquire about if it would be ok to discuss possibile feature in the betas being released of the summer. If they state no, then we are one step closer to knowing where we stand and can move on with our lives. If they say yes, then it gives us a clearer idea of what we can discuss and/do and go forward as a community of IOS users who care about a platform we use, are passionate about, and regard positively.
What do you think?
Do we really have to have this ridiculous conversation every year. The AppleVis editors set up a website which thousands of us use, and have made an editorial decision to respect Non Disclosure Agreements and ask users to do likewise, it's not that crazy!
Yes many websites choose to ignore NDA, and others choose to respect it. If you just can't wait, then consider getting a developer account, though please don't use your main device for this because you'll probably regret it. I have the beta and mostly try to respect the NDA, on my own YouTube channel and other places, and certainly here on AppleVis. It is up to each individual to make this decision for themselves, but AppleVis is also perfectly entitled to respect NDA on the site, and based on the evidence of the past several years, I don't think this is likely to change.
Honestly there isn't much to report anyway beyond what's in the public sphere.
Vash, Apple’s rules on what can and cannot be said about their beta software appear to be very clear - if they haven’t publicly mentioned it themselves, the NDA prevents you from talking about it. There’s no exception because you are blind. And in any cases, you want to be treated the same as everybody else, right? Contacting the Accessibility Team is not going to change this, as it’s a policy decision made much higher than where they sit in the Apple pecking order.
Like I said, There are feelings and fears we put into things that matter to us. When something is important to someone and you say no to them, they might want to find a way around it; a loop hole it may.
I agree about getting a developer account as it isn't really much in the way of price. If a few of us did this, and provided feedback, voiceover might even be better than it is now. But some either do not want to pay and cannot pay the price.
I also have the beta, and there are things in the public domain, and other things are not.
Dave82, What is your youtube channel? I would very much like to see your videos and hear what you would have to say. If this breaches something, I apologize. Just reaching out to a fellow user.
Have you actually contacted Apple Accessibility? I plan to do so for myself. If I get something in writing and am allowed to present it here, I will.
Us talking about something that directly impacts us as BLIND users has nothing to do with being treated the same as everyone else. I am talking about accessibility in our lives that essentially does not make us the same as others around us.
Sighted people can simply pick up their phone and use it; We need voiceover to have a chance with an IPhone, IPad, Mac, ETC. Sighted people don't need a site like Applevis because they can use pretty much any app; We do not have that luxury. Sighted people don't think about accessibility and the blind community does in pretty much everything we do.
We use our phones differently, We watch movies differently, we read books differently, we walk differently, we eat differently, we organize our things differently, we navigate sites differently, we work differently. We are not less than anyone, but we are different.
I am simply wanting to know what the options really are. If applevis does not wish for us to discuss IOS betas, that is totally fine.
I am not talking about calling Apple accessibility and asking them to change their policies. I am suggesting that we call and find out what the policy is regarding blind individuals using Betas and/or wanting more information. Usually, there is no policy because o one has gone so far as to set a policy for people like us.
Like I said, I have no intention of breaching any policies. I have not stated one thing about features, issues, improvements, etc and will not until I have been given permission.
There's actually loads of info on the net about iOS 8 you just have to know where to find it. But no matter how many times some of you ask, Applevis just isn't going to be the place for it. I don't know why people insist on bringing up the point again and again the answer isn't going to change if the question is asked over and over again by several people. As for this whole idea of being entitled to talk about this stuff because of accessibility? Gimme a break. Yes, we do rely on these things but give apple a little credit will you. Take a second, stop, and really think for a minute. The first iPhone released back in 2007 had no accessibility features built in, at all. None. No VoiceOver. No Zoom. No braille support. None of it but then look what happened, Apple revolutionized things and gave us all these accessibility tools. If you think you know better, go work for Apple and show em how it's done. Seriously...no operating system is 100 percent bug-free. There are going to be bugs in the final iOS 8 when it's released this fall, you can count on that just like you can count on the sun rising in the east, just like other constants in life. iOS and all other operating systems are going to have bugs. If there are any real accessibility concerns, do the right thing and let Apple know in the proper way and hopefully they'll be able to squash them. I'd just like to see some of you guys respect the wishes of the editorial team. Some of them are beta testers and they take that privelage very seriously. They don't want this site to get on the bad side of Apple. Yes it's one website and we're a small group but it's a respect thing so lets let Apple do their work and let the editorial team do their work too.
Hi Vash. My channel is at www.youtube.com/davenason. I haven't actually posted anything for a while, though I have been meaning to :) So far I've done some VoiceOver tutorials and jailbreaking stuff. I've decided to steer clear of talking about iOS beta software on there.
I generally agree with a lot of what you say on this site, but I don't think the world is quite as black and white as you describe there, i.e. sighted folks and blind folks, who each use apps differently. But in any case, I believe that the accessibility team will tell you that the primary purpose of the beta program is not for end user feedback, but rather to give app developers the opportunity to get there apps working with the new version. Of course, Apple do take general feedback and improve the OS throughout. They will likely tell you that you are welcome to sign up for a developer account, and from there provide with feedback and bug reports that you have, but ask that you respect the NDA and do not discuss this publicly.
I actually don't think there would be much benefit to allowing public discussion on a forum like this anyway, as by their nature, betas are very messy and changeable. Bugs come and go, and new features even come and go throughout, so it probably wouldn't be too beneficial. Not that I wouldn't enjoy chatting about new features :)
the one for the mac will be beta for all those who want to check without having to be developer. Maybe next year they will do iOS 9 to be tested by all.
vash now you understand what I wanted to say.
those who criticized me just tell you were all unhappy to criticize me for one thing I did not say .
I never talked about breaking the rules of the apple.
I was referring only to the blind who are content with favors ...
the vash is a man who fights for his ideals and in this case the accessibility of Apple products, he and many like him want to be treated with the same rights as normal people.
and when he encourages us to fight together to change things so that we are better served, some blind defend the apple because they think that what has been done so far is enough and it's okay ...
no, it's not okay because we still are not treated like normal people.
I mean not just Apple, but all the companies dealing to us in the worst way.
apple still has to learn a lot with blind users.
and there are some blind people who are content with just the favors that apple makes them ...
vash believes just wrote this to tell you, I admire you as a man who knows that together we could be happier, but there are always the push bag apple to criticize people of courage fighting for them and for all ...
I always say: people who do not fight for their rights, are always dependent on the goodwill of others ...
apple when it took to make a serious commitment and responsible in accessibility in a general context, she knew perfectly well that he had to treat everyone the same way.
why I blind user to use an Apple product when there are accessibility problems that limit me to use a product that Apple says is accessible and it takes people with disabilities to buy apple products, the same problems are not corrected on time and with the same responsibility that address the problems of normal people?
I also paid the same money with a product that has to be updated with the responsibility of being treated with the same rights.
all you are happy with the lack of responsibility that apple has had on the accessibility of voice over on mac?
the mavericks have been a shame ...
bugs of years that were never corrected, and many other are still to correct and the worst is that most of them are bugs that exist in native apps on the mac ...
and there is still so much to do ...
how much longer we wait until all these problems are solved and some wishes to see realized we ordered so long?
ok, if it's okay for you, for me and men like vash the apple still have to treat us much better ...
vash in the previous post tried to ask all some views that we could all have for improve all that things, and what was that you showed it?
was criticized and misunderstood for wanting the good of all!
several times he tried to appeal to the community applevis to fight for a fair way and was always criticized and even insulted by the same people who criticized me.
so I still say:
Some blind have only what they deserve ...
What a heated up conversation here:) Few thoughts.
1. If you don't like Applevis's views on NDA, the log out button is perfectly accessible. You can freely discuss it on sites which don't respect NDA.
2. Its unlikely that you could have any sort of help of knowing, that this or that button in iOs 8 or osx 10.10 is inaccessible. You can't use it, so you shouldn't care of it until you gain access. Reporting to email@example.com wouldn't probably help, because they unlikely serve the purpose for accessibility bug reports for beta versions. (just a guess, but I see it logical.)
Finally, there are enough blind developers who have already installed iOs 8 and Osx 10.10 and are working on testing the accessibility of the features. I'm shure they do the best they can.
Now, go and be happy with iOs7 and 10.9, they are still very good operating systems.
I'm just wondering why anybody can't put lock on the tread, because the Applevis's views and opinions regarding NDA are more than obvious, we really shouldn't go through the same fight every time apple releases a bit of new OS.
Also, I fail to see why blind or visually impaired users should know of some features earlier than a sighted person should? What makes us so different? Of course we depend on them, but we do depend on a lot of things which we don't know of before their release / appearance. If apple breaks accessibility somewhere, your options are obvious. Not upgrade and wait for fix, which is likely to come, since apple seems to continue work on accessibility.
It just blows my mind seeing how this thread has developed from a single simple question.
It is understandable that some people may have heard all about the iOS 8 and did not realize that it was only an announcement of the iOS 8 and some of the things you can expect out of it this coming fall for the public. It is currently going in to the beta phase of the development. Which means that any developer and those with the Apple Developer Account can now take a peek at it now. The idea is simple. It is meant for developers to take the chance to get their apps and take advantages of all of the new things we can expect from the iOS 8. It is also a great time for people to help Apple to report those bugs to them. In the end of the beta cycle. We can cross our fingers that Apple has done a great job for the initial first public release.
Somehow, it seems that we are now getting people that are truly not a developer or really meaning to test the beta out as it was designed for testers to do.
These days it is all about people that are either selfish, trying to make money of getting out the door first on the news, or people that just want to brag. It is very sad that it has come to this point. It does seem that some sites and people have no regards for the NdA at all nor have any interest to really do what beta testers were meant to do. Beta testing was design to report the problem. Not to publish them and tell everyone all about them.
If you have a copy of the iOS 8 by legal means. That means you are a developer or a beta tester. I am really happy for you.
You are legally binded by the law in which you have AGREED to that NDA when you signed up for the account with Apple. That law you have agreed to says you will not divulge any information to anyone. You are also responsible to help with that beta process. Everyone is treated equally and have agreed equally. Sighted or not. It is very simple and plain in what it says in that agreement.
Everyone that is on the AppleVis Editorial Team has taken this pledge with Apple to do what is morally right. We as a team have agreed to this approach and will not divulge any information until the day of the public release. So also will and have taken the steps that any information that has not been revealed from the Apple Keynotes be removed from this site. If anyone decide to divulge those information.
So if one want to take swipes at us and call us names for simply following the rules. Remember we are obligated and are required to do this by the NDA agreement that we have agreed to. Name calling and other such words you want to call us is something I just don't understand.
We will release everything we know about the iOS 8 in due time. As we have always done in the past. You can and will expect a lot of information from us to help you knowing in what you what to know. Plus, a variety of blogs and podcasts to help your learning curve of anything new is reveal to you and how to use it.
Believe me. I know we are all very excited and anxious to get our hands on the iOS 8 public release.
I know there are people in this thread are meaning only good will and thoughts for the visually impaired community. As I can't disagree in that it is critical and essential that all people that are developers or testers. To report every single bug you find to Apple. Please remember that all beta bugs are to be reported to through the developer account you have used to obtain the iOS 8. Not to the Accessibility Team nor to call them. Those that have obtain the iOS 8 in other means will not be able to report those bugs. So please do it legally and not buy your rights in to the iOS 8 so you can go boast about it to all of your friends and peers. Do it for the right reasons and morally do it for the right reason.
For those others that are frustrated and are not on the beta testing phase and want to make a stance or a voice. You will be a lot more effective if you call Apple and report your frustration. Expressing your frustration here just baffles me. To me it does nothing and will do nothing to improve in what Apple can do for you.
So for all of those iOS 8 beta testers out there. Please focus all of your eagerness and energy in finding those bugs and report them Apple. We have an obligation for the Visually Impaired Community. That is to get as much bugs reported so Apple will have time to get those fixed before the public release. The more effort we put in to this the more of a differences when can make for our peers.
Lastly, before I step off of my soap box.
Now for all of those people that do have a copy of the iOS 8 and you have obtained it by other means or that gray area. Those that can't even report the bugs to Apple.
Please ask yourself. Why do you even have it then? If you can't even report those bugs to Apple. What is the point? Please do it for the right reason. Do what is morally right.
So I hope we can put this to a rest and move on. There is no need for any more bashing and bickering about this. Please respect the Apple NDA and the decision that the AppleVis Editorial Team has decided.
To answer the original question that has sparked this long debate. No, it has not been released to the public. It will be out in the fall. You can bet that we will let you know about it. Please check back to AppleVis for more information about it. Sadly, we don't have any more information to reveal other than what we have already posted in our blogs. So give them a read.
We will not be contacting Apple Accessibility, or any other department at Apple, regarding allowing beta software discussions on the AppleVis website. We have no reason to believe that the NDA applies to users of VoiceOver any differently than to sighted users...and we have no intention of pursuing a special exception on the basis of, well, I don't even know what one could logically base it on.
The bottom line is that, until Apple makes software public or no longer requires an NDA, discussions of beta software will not be allowed on AppleVis. If you wish to discuss beta software, please go elsewhere. Lastly, individual users contacting Apple for an "NDA exception" *will not* change our position whatsoever. Such contact with Apple would be far better spent asking them to create an accessibility discussion area on their private beta forum.
anyone have the full text of the updated NDA? from this it looks like * anything discussed or maybe discussed at WDC would be public...
We’re closing this topic on the grounds that this discussion has been had numerous times in the past.
Although it is both inevitable and necessary that it resurfaces at the start of every Apple beta cycle, there comes a point in the discussion where competing positions have said all that can be said and keeping the discussion alive beyond this serves no positive purpose.