One Voice - A polite discussion of how we, the community, can voice issues to Apple

Forum
Accessibility Advocacy

Hi,

Just thought I'd set up this thread for people to throw some ideas around of how we might voice issues to apple regarding bugs, inaccessibility and any other issues.

My hope is to:

  • Develop a simple means of logging issues.
  • create a unified voice with said issues in mind.
  • Establish the best means of presenting these issues or findings to apple.

If we can meet these goals we can also extend the methodology to 3rd party developers.

I believe that unifying our voices on issues has much more power for change compared with that of individuals.

I realise that there are already methods such as the feedback app on beta builds, but if we have a means of everyone listing their issues, we can then collate the problems providing apple with coherent feedback and us with greater leverage as a group.

These are just a few ideas off the top of my head. My motivation is wanting us to stop in fighting and muster a solution. There are a lot of upset blind apple users, let's find a constructive way to resolve these problems.

So, please present your ideas in a considered and respectful way... We all know how such forums can devolve into fruitless squabbling. Let's work together on this solution.

Options

Comments

Submitted by Holger Fiallo on Sunday, October 20, 2019

Good morning.
First let me start by sharing that my first PC was an Apple C. My First iPhone was 4, them 4s, 5, 5s, 6, 7 and XS. Now I have Series 5.
I do like Apple products when they work and for most part they do work well. However the issue of bugs is a concern and when the issues of bugs are brought up, people start to call you names because they feel that Apple does not do anything wrong. I spent $1000 and $350 for an Apple product, (iPhone XS and Series 5), I expect them to work well.
We need to make news magazines aware such as 9 to 5, Apple insider and others about issues regarding bugs related to accessibility so they can report them. Most of them do not know much about the issues we face when we have bugs and how long it takes Apple to address them.
Also I respect the folks from applevis and appreciate their work, if they are going to invite a representative from Apple they need to ask the hard questions that concern us. If Apple do not care for this, them do not give them a platform to talk about how wonderful they are. I am ware that they are not reporters or news people but we do not need to hear how great, or wonderful Apple are regarding accessibility. Apple is just following the law concerning accessibility specially since they provide products to governments agencies and I believe there is a law concerning accessibility.
Now before people start to call me names, let me remind them that I had been an Apple user for longer than most of the people here and I do like Apple products when they work and for the most part, they do work. However when Apple is not addressing bugs, we need to express our thoughts specially since we purchase the products and we did not get them for free or our auntie Matilda or a agency gave them to us.

Submitted by Oliver Kennett on Sunday, October 20, 2019

In reply to by Holger Fiallo

So to clarify, you think we should hold apple publicly accountable for failures using the media and by highlighting the specific use case scenarios that bugs lead to both in our working and private lives? I think that's a good idea indeed.

I agree with you %100. When a bug that affect sighted people apple address it ASAP and sometimes releases a press statement explaining what happen. We are not second class citizens.

Submitted by brandon armstrong on Sunday, October 20, 2019

I am in absolute agreement with holding apple accountable for their shortcomings through the media. I also think that this be greatful for any accessibility that apple gives us among us needs to go. I really get tired of the few that keep saying this when we have huge outstanding bugs that have not been fixed and we have to put up with for months on end.

Submitted by Cankut Değerli on Sunday, October 20, 2019

Hi.
Firstly, thank you for opening this topic. This is very important. Actually, this issue is not specific for apple but all companies.
However, İt seams that Apple is the most eye -catching company in the world when the accessibility is concerned.
İn every conferences apple introduces Manny hardwares and softwares, and they always use words like "Spectacular, stunning..." ETC. But accessibility often isn't the main topic.
I'm Both an İphone and a Mac user. I think Catalina is the most stable version in recent years on the Mac but two years had to pass for apple to address the bugs.
So, I agrree with all of you, the bugs we encountered should be told through by the mainstream sites like Mac Rumors. Maybe this will make the process of addressing bugs faster.
Lastly, sorry for any mistakes, English is my second language.

Submitted by Holger Fiallo on Sunday, October 20, 2019

In reply to by Cankut Değerli

Me to. Second language and Bella the cat did not want to check my grammar.

Submitted by J.P. on Sunday, October 20, 2019

There are some bugs that just endure. From release to release. We should list these bugs and send to Sara Herrlinger. Before sending, Have all willing to sign it. Along with a courteous synopsis how that bug affects their productivity.
To be clear. Those bugs that just never get resolved. You could also cc: Tim Cook.

Submitted by Holger Fiallo on Sunday, October 20, 2019

In reply to by J.P.

This is something applevis should had done.

Submitted by Igna Triay on Sunday, October 20, 2019

What are thir emails? I agree. We should let the media know about this, but we shouldn't count on them doing the work for us. I mean, we cant just tell this to the media then sit back. We need to report this to apple as well. I would suggest creating a petition for apple to fix bugs and to take accessibility more seriously. The bugs to be fixed should include i believe ones that have been around for a while, and those that came with ios 13. I agree, apple should be held accountable, yes, but we need to look at the larger picture here. Our main goal should be to raise awareness of accessibility and that not just sighted people use phones, etc. People need to know about accessibility, I believe this is the first step in making things better. To the poster who said we are not second class s Citizens, your 100 percent right; we are not. We are like everyone else. Sadly, the world, views us a second elass

Submitted by J.P. on Sunday, October 20, 2019

Not sure of Sara’s email, but I’ve written Tim Cook before. His is tcook@apple.

Submitted by KE7ZUM on Sunday, October 20, 2019

I think if you are publicly beta testing you can go to bugreport.apple.com and even if you are not you can submit stuff that way. But frankly I see no way of collecting stuff as I've seen some horrible reports on here and other places. I've read stuff such as "it don't work" with out any detail and when I ask for it I get "I don't know, and I can't find it." when we give instructions sometimes I get "I still don't know and I give up." I think that reporting bugs should be done thus.

1. Submit sys diags for ios and mac os.
2. Report the problem
3. Do a time and date stamp with use cases and steps to reproduce.
4. Keep submitting the bug through updates or every week if you have not heard back.

The sys diag files can be huge so do it through dropbox if you have to. Also make sure yoru bug reports a are at least 2 or 3 pages in length if you can. I've gotten positive feedback from developers and companies I've tested for over the past almost 20 years of me doing this behind the seens.

Most of us had made a report via email and phone in the majority of the cases apple always state "We are aware of the problem and we are addressing it" or something similar to it. How many messages like you got when you made a report?

Submitted by J.P. on Sunday, October 20, 2019

Beta feedback actually has its own app. It’s very easy to use. It will upload system diagnostics directly. I suggest all to enroll in beta.
I reported a Siri issue for 13.2.2 and they asked to confirm it was fixed in 13.2.3. It indeed was.
Large enrollment in beta by blind consumers is our greatest advocacy.

Submitted by Holger Fiallo on Sunday, October 20, 2019

In reply to by J.P.

That is not not solve the issue. While doing beta is important, some of us only have one iPhone and I know most people suggest that if you have one phone do not beta unless you have another phone. If iOS is out, Apple is responsible for the software. The bug about voiceover probably was reported to them when in beta but nothing was done about it.

Submitted by Vash Rein on Sunday, October 20, 2019

There are people whose response is usually, ‘I’m not experiencing that’ or ‘I’m lucky that I haven’t experienced it.’

That could be very dismissive of People that are going through the actual issue. Even if you haven’t gone through it, that doesn’t mean you won’t go through it. Consider that use of your phone is different from the person next to youu. There are bugs that cannot be avoided no matter what and bugs that are very subtle in their reproduction.

Please consider acknowledging a persons report.

With that being said, if someone decides to post an issue on a website like this, there should be a bare minimum of how to actually reproduce the issue. For example, providing steps as to how a bug is triggered. I appreciate that not everyone knows how to trigger every single bug they come across. If that is the case, there could be at least some effort made as to what they think might be causing it.

If we all have the steps and are able to reproduce the bug, then we can contact Apple directly and provide them with the steps to reproduce it repeatedly. if 50 of us do so as opposed to 10 of us, Apple might take more notice that it is an issue that should be fixed; or at least looked at.

This is all a numbers game. Sighted people post to Apple in the hundreds. That’s why it’s noticed. We have to be willing to do the same. Even if we’re not experiencing the issue personally. As stated, just because you don’t go through the same issue doesn’t mean that it doesn’t actually exist in the base code.

The key is to support each other no matter what; and back each other up no matter what. If someone says there’s an issue. Then maybe we can say yes you must be going through an issue. I’m going to submit an email alongside you

I am sure that many people reported the bug regarding voiceover not working when getting a call or making a call. I know I reported several bugs and was told Apple was aware of the bug. This was in iOS 13.1. Now iOS 13.2 is coming next month. We will seehow many bugs were address specially regarding Braille. I do not use Braille but I know many people here who do, had contacted apple and made a report.

Submitted by Oliver Kennett on Sunday, October 20, 2019

So, we have two targets for voicing concerns with persistent bugs, apple and media that highlight other wider ranging bugs such as Mac rumours. My suggestion is that we approach apple first, give them a chance to resolve the issue with continuing updates of their progress, and failing their response, highlight the issue to the media.

As mentioned, the beta method of reporting bugs is not a solution for all of us who do not wish to be on the bleeding edge of operating systems. The reason we are having this discussion is that we want a stable release where all features work as advertised. The beta program isn't working, or, not to my mind anyway. This is where bugs should be quashed and not post public release.

Regarding comment 12, some great ideas. I'm aiming for more simplicity though, I'm aware that apple needs the raw data to recreate the issue, but multi staged processes of reporting will put most aside from the most technically minded off.

Possibly we could use apple vis itself as a reporting tool. All we need is to create a topic, 'VO crashing on IOS 13.1.3' as a current example, and people simply listing their experience for example, it happens when... Or, I can fix it by... In this way we can collate anecdotal use case scenarios which are easy to fill in, possibly a template, and a source to show to apple's accessibility team. We, as a community can send these individual topics to the team and ask, as a united voice, for some sort of response.

How does this sound? Would it be possible for apple vis to include a content submission category specific to bug reporting including a template similar to apples own feedback system?

Submitted by J.P. on Sunday, October 20, 2019

I do also believe that reproduction is important. It’s not always feasible, but does help diagnose underlying issue.
I also don’t like the dismissive attitudes of bugs. Also holding Apple as some false prophet.
We must respect and empathize with each experience. We have different abilities and disabilities. This also means hundreds, if not thousands of unique settings and configurations.
An unlabeled button isn’t the end of the world, but a bug I report isn’t less, or more important than someone else’s.
Common courtesy and respect can unite for a greater good. We should also be provided a good UI experience. Not because I’m blind, but because I have paid for what has been marketed to me as an accessible product. Accessible, not Accessible-ish.

Submitted by Holger Fiallo on Sunday, October 20, 2019

I am sure that many people reported bugs during the beta of iOS 13. specially the great people who are in charge of this webpage. I do not recall ever getting a warning from applevis about a major release like applevis did concerning iOS 13 and iOS 13.1.

Submitted by KE7ZUM on Sunday, October 20, 2019

In reply to by Holger Fiallo

I normally get that, or I get "We can't reproduce it, or I get "yoru bug is closed" with out a reason why.

Submitted by Luke on Sunday, October 20, 2019

There was a moment a year ago where I realized that posting issues to this forum was serving little more purpose than all of us venting and bonding over unresolved bugs and annoyances. I was surprised to learn that hes reports don't actually make it to Apple. Here we have this huge, thorough and wide reaching repository of bug reports but nothing comes of them. It's still up to individuals to submit their reports directly to Apple. Why doesn't this site have a mechanism for compiling and submitting mass bug reports to Apple? As the OP correctly notes, such reports are far more powerful and visible in mass than from individuals.

Submitted by Luke on Sunday, October 20, 2019

So, it just so happens I'm currently enrolled in a six month coding boot camp where I'm learning full stack web development. Perhaps it could be a cool and useful project once my training is complete to build a web site that serves exactly this purpose -- aggregating accessibility bug feedback and translating it into something clean, consistent and thorough that could be conveyed to Apple and other big companies.

Submitted by Holger Fiallo on Sunday, October 20, 2019

This is nice to report bugs but if Apple takes their time to fix and focus more on bugs that affect sighted people what is the point? We need more. How long we had reported bugs without much success specially those nice people who use Braille. Apple tend to fix bugs when a major iOS is out such as iOS 14. Hoping that iOS 13.2 fixes most of the bugs but I am not holding my breath.

Submitted by David Goodwin👨‍🦯 on Sunday, October 20, 2019

Member of the AppleVis Editorial Team

I have just a couple quick comments for now.

The first is that we have previously explored options for using AppleVis to improve the quality and quantity of bug reports made to Apple.

One option that we thought had potential was a form on the website that would mirror the form used in Apple's feedback app - in that it would allow people to provide specific and detailed information on such things as their hardware, software version, and the steps to reproduce the bug - the data from this form would be emailed immediately and directly to Apple using the details submitted as the email sender (so, we would not in any way be a ‘gatekeeper’ between end users and Apple).

There were some potential issues that would need to be addressed or accepted, but Apple made it very clear at the time that they would not support or endorse such a tool. It was stressed that an email sent direct by the person experiencing the bug was the preferred method, and that any attempt to coordinate reports would not be welcomed.

Secondly, Apple will be aware beforehand of bugs that we detail in any OS release announcement, as we do what we can to make sure that Apple's Accessibility Team know about bugs as early as possible.

I don't want this post to come across as negative towards this thread and the suggestions made. However, I do feel it necessary to point out that some of the suggestions already made would need to have Apple's support if they were to achieve anything. And, being frank, my experience suggests that Apple might not be supportive of some of the suggestions in this thread (certainly in regard to orchestrating bug reports).

However, do please keep the suggestions coming, as anything which can make it easier and faster for Apple to address bugs is in all of our best interests.

Submitted by Holger Fiallo on Sunday, October 20, 2019

Yes, he is correct. I do not have twitt or facebook so for those of you who do have them, 9 to 5, apple insider and others that post in youtubeand have the above, let them know about apple lack of concern when bugs are not address of the same time others are address. I do put comments in those video that talk about Apple releases.

Submitted by Jeff on Sunday, October 20, 2019

In response to David's comment #27, perhaps a guide could be written and posted on the site describing what should (and should not) be included in a bug report to Apple, and how to get the information. It could stress the importance of including the steps to reproduce the problem because I know this goes a long ways to getting the problem fixed. It could include who to contact and how to do so. It might include in the introduction David's explanation of why Applevis doesn't aggrigate bug reports and send them to Apple.

Just a suggestion...

Submitted by LaBoheme on Monday, October 21, 2019

many people prefer blaming themselves rather than holding apple accountable, at least subconsciously. the focus seems to be on the quantity and quality of our bug reports, like we're not doing good enough to let apple know. the truth is beta testers had reported these bugs before production release, and ordinary users have contacted apple as well, and hhow about apple's inhouse engineers? as for whether apple want to address these issues in a timely manner or at all is another question.

so stop blaming yourself, you're doing just fine. and if you find ways to do better, i'm sure you'll all do so. i have never come across any company whose customers think at least 50% of the problems they experience are their fault.

so i heard the call bug was fix in 13.2, they why can't apple release a small update now to ease the pain? apple has released updates for less. that ought to tell you something.

as for criticizing apple, why not? this is the social media where vi people talk about their apple product--hardware, software and apps, it's like a special intrest bar. so if someone is ranting about some issues in life and you come up and say you got to take responsibility for yourself, you should be grateful for being alive, guess what happens.

Submitted by Oliver Kennett on Monday, October 21, 2019

To David, thank you for highlighting these points and it's great to hear that this has been explored before.

I can understand why apple would not be open about an out of the walled garden bug reporting system, they like full control for various reasons. Here, I'm wondering if the addition of making it public domain and introducing an accountable element by exposing it to media streams such as Mac rumours could force their hand.

My worry is that, more and more, I'm seeing the frustration come out on this site. Someone says they're having a problem, a couple of people agree, someone may suggest a work around and then it's three pages of pain. It would be nice to turn this echo chamber of frustrations into something bigger and something that can be directed at apple to say, we will be recognised as important customers, you are not keeping your end of this deal and we want you to do something about this, and thank you...

I suppose that we are talking about a series of open letters to apple that the world can see about major bugs that are not being addressed in their products.

So, as an exercise to try and get a method for this, let's try and come up with just a couple of bugs. My suggestion is to title the thread:

Open Letter To Apple Regarding ...

Whilst people add their issue, just as is, we can have a placeholder message at the top providing instructions for the thread, IE, please report the problem and your experiences and report them in a concise dispassionate way, this is not a discussion.

Once we reach a certain number of people who have had this issue, the thread poster can change the original post to be an open letter, possibly using a template which I'd be happy to draft, and then we have a nice little package for apple and any interested media.

It might work, it might not, but I think it is important to try. There is a lot of energy and passion amongst this community, I think it's a real pity if it's left to go to waste.

What does everyone think?

David, is this sort of use of the forum permitted?

If not, maybe we can look at another platform such as suggested by the commenter somewhere around the 20 mark. I'd never want AppleVis to suffer, it's been the number one resource for me in becoming a better Mac and iPhone user and I owe the team a great deal. :)

Submitted by David Goodwin👨‍🦯 on Monday, October 21, 2019

Member of the AppleVis Editorial Team

One of the reasons we retired our Campaign of the Month was that several developers told us that cookie cutter or template email campaigns actually had a negative effect, and that they were more likely to be receptive to approaches to improve accessibility if receiving personal and unique emails.

In the case of bug reports, there is the added factor that people might have the best of intentions when emailing Apple to ask that they fix something, but if they report a bug that they haven't personally experienced, they might actually make it harder to isolate the problem - in that some bugs will be specific to certain hardware, software version or use cases, and knowing this helps developers to isolate the cause. Essentially, we don't want emails being sent which only serve to ‘muddy the waters’.

Getting bugs prioritized is very much a numbers game - the more people effected, the more likely it is that a company will allocate developer time - but it's also important that the developers have accurate and detailed information on the nature and scope of a bug.

All of that to say, is that in my opinion we need to identify a strategy that combines both quantity and quality of feedback to Apple. I have no doubt that if we do this, Apple's Accessibility Team would be happy too - in that we make it easier for them to find and resolve bugs, whilst also giving them a stronger case when it comes to asking for developer time.

Submitted by Bingo Little on Monday, October 21, 2019

It's worth saying, I think, that Apple does look at this site including the discussion forums. I've been to the Covent Garden Apple Store a few times now for one reason or another, and on more than one occasion when I've had a problem with my iPhone the technician has looked at Applevis to see what others are saying. One time I remember explaining about the deterioration in the UK Siri female voice with Voiceover, and the discussion forum on that topic proved particularly useful on that occasion as it confirmed I wasn't just imagining things.

Submitted by Holger Fiallo on Monday, October 21, 2019

What about having several people here who are great with using iOS and they can check if they can reproduce the bugs we report and send an email to apple accessibility. I still think the best thing is letting those news magazines such as 9 to 5, apple insider those who report on testing iOS in youtube about issues we have. If someone here knows a local news person letting them know so maybe they can make report and who knows. Reporting bugs is great but if they are going to take their time and only fix those that sighted people report first, we need more.

Submitted by KE7ZUM on Monday, October 21, 2019

We could try that, Imean contact mac roomers etc. I follow them and am open to contacting them about these bugs which are now by the way fixed. I'm running ios 13.2.3 here and it's rock solid.

Submitted by Oliver Kennett on Monday, October 21, 2019

You make a lot of sense David. Maybe the simplest answer is to make sure that everyone is aware how to report bugs. In my experience apple support do get back to me to clarify points and tell me their next steps. In fact, it has become a lot better in recent years.

Maybe, for now, simply linking to the bug reporting post so people are aware of how to do it is the best way forward. We need to say, when it comes to threads about bugs, which of us have reported it. If there is an overwhelming amount and yet nothing has been heard back and nothing is done about it, then I agree that talking to media outlets is a good idea.

I know it's a big pile of suck that we have to put more effort in than sighted counterparts and we shouldn't have to, but if we can take the time to let off some steam and frustration in an apple vis thread, we can take time to shoot off an email to accessibility@Apple.com

Well I still dealing with bugs. One is regarding when on the lock screen and get any notification, at end of the notification VO says the time. Did not happen with iOS 12, 11, 10, 8, 9 after it was fix. Another bug has to do with voiceover and siri. On the lock screen, when I use power button voiceover says "How may I help and she becomes confuse. This happen %40 of the time. May I have your iPhone?

Submitted by Eileen on Monday, October 21, 2019

KE7ZUM,

Thanks for the offer, but your credibility is sstill shot after your comments that iOS 13.0 was bug free and even if there had been bugs that Apple would fix them with a day 1 update.

I guess that this also puts a big question mark on your claim that 13.2 will be rock solid.

In fact, why are you even on this thread when you routinely claim that there are no bugs in Apple's software?

Submitted by KE7ZUM on Monday, October 21, 2019

In reply to by Eileen

I can say what i want, when I want. I don't experience most of the bugs you people say you have, and if you do do what I do and report. For example they fixed Feedback · FB7354455 and I am tempted to close Feedback · FB7328684. I am all ready to close. Feedback · FB7324357 butI still need to work on Feedback · FB7314063 and report that as that's a big one at least for me. I still need to close Feedback · FB7182348 as that's now fixed and so is Feedback · FB7111756, Feedback · FB6986933 ( that one was my fault) , Feedback · FB6980960, and Feedback · FB5761079 is closed. I can now say they fixed Feedback · FB7354455 with in a few days which is really sweet. You want bug numbers, there you go, some dating back to 2017. Most of which are or will be closed by me. I'm proud to say I was instrumental in closing Feedback · FB5932552 way back in July of 2011. So yeah I have ben reporting all of these bugs and have ben closing them if I deem them to be fixed which they are.

Submitted by Holger Fiallo on Monday, October 21, 2019

In reply to by KE7ZUM

Well. Suggest you make a commercial for Apple. They would love you. What about my respond to you regarding my bug?

Submitted by KE7ZUM on Monday, October 21, 2019

I now can't remember what it is, but report it and xsee what they say. Email accesibility@appple.com and submit a sis diagnose file. Also make sure if you can the bug is at least 1-2 pages in length. Apple really loves the details.

Submitted by Igna Triay on Monday, October 21, 2019

how do you submit sistem diagnose files on ios mac or apple watch? I report bugs to apple comstantly, but haven't figured out how to send a sistem diagnose

Submitted by brandon armstrong on Monday, October 21, 2019

sarah, why do you say the most absolute dumbest things. not everyone can report as you can, so instead of being stupid and saying dumb things, how about explaining how to do your stupid reports like you expect them.

Submitted by Oliver Kennett on Tuesday, October 22, 2019

I'm impressed we got into the low 40s before the bickering started. *Looks into the distance*... It was such a beautiful dream...

I believe system reports are found in the apple menu in about on the Mac. As for seeing crash data on IOS:

Tap Settings
Tap Privacy
Tap Analytics
Tap Analytics Data

This was cribbed from another site.

Maybe someone else knows if there is a better way to view such things or submit comprehensive data to apple such as system reports?

O

Submitted by KE7ZUM on Tuesday, October 22, 2019

In reply to by Igna Triay

On ios:

  1. Reproduce the issue
  2. Hold volume up and volume down and power for 250 ms.. You will know you did it right if you feel a vibration.
  3. Wait for about maybe 20 minutes.
  4. Go to settings, privacy, data, and data at the top. Scroll to the sys diag with today's date.
  5. Email the 300 mb file using dropbox to accessibility@apple.com or the company you're are submitting the file to along with a time stamp. Of when the bug happened and steps to reproduce and work arounds, plus summery

On mac os:

  1. Reproduce the issue
  2. Launch terminal
  3. Type "sudo sysdiagnose" no quotes and hit enter
  4. Type in your pw.
  5. Wait.
  6. Repeat the rest of the steps in the guide above.

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