Highly considering switching to Android, and never touching Apple again if no one can help.

Forum
iOS & iPadOS

I recently have changed job positions, and no longer am being required to use Apple products. I intend to keep this post as civil as I ever so possibly can, but just no, even after stepping aside and trying to take a break, I'm still pretty dang fumed!

This isn't the first time I've seen this with Apple, and though, especially on a forum like this that is so reputable for respecting Apple, I feel bad posting this, but I'm going to bring awareness. I understand before I start, not everyone has had this experience. Further, I know some of you are probably going to classify me as a little bitching troll, and you know, that's OK, it's your right of opinion. I know there are those in the AV community that will support and help me.

So, let me give some brief background. I am a professional audio engineer, and recently, I was promoted in my job to digital media manager specialist. This means I have to be responsible not only for creating content for my company in audio, I also have to create professional videos which look elegant.

Basically, I figured, OK, I'll learn Logic. and for doing movies, I'll learn iMovie. Right now, and this is why I'm posting this in the iOS forum, not the mac forum, highest priority is, I have a few videos I gotta make. Yeah, I know I could just use the camera app on iOS, shoot the video, and be done with it, but that's not gonna cut it for what I need done. I need to take multiple videos, join them together as one, and then add some background music as well. For the most part, with iMovie, I've figured this out, but the issue now is, for the life of me, I cannot figure out how to shuttle my playhead back and forward in the project. I know some have said it can be done, but it's a pain in the kneck, I don't care a rat's hoot right now about it being a pain in the ass. I can deal with it being annoying. I just need to know straight up with VO on iOS, on either an iPad or on an iPhone, preferably iPhone, how to do this! Here's why I won't touch Apple again if this can't be resolved.

I've gotta job to do! It's not for fun. This is my business. This is my profession at this point! When I call Apple, regardless if it's about Pages, Numbers, Keynote, iMovie, Logic, Garageband, whatever it may be, they tell me they cannot help me in Accessibility, as oh, we know Voiceover, but we don't at all know Creative Media apps. OK, they get me over to Creative Media. Now, a 1 80! We know Creative apps like iMovie both on iOS, and on OSX, but God help us to know Voiceover.

Not once or twice, but up to about 5 times tonight, and probably 15 over the last month, just talking to different advisors in both departments, both tell me we cannot conference in the other department. We can warm transfer you, and stay with you until they come on the line, but our policy will not let us stay once they come on the line. I told them that was utter bull crap, as I know agents who've done it. Well, they weren't supposed to.

When I asked, can you at least do a screenshare, look at the app visually, and see if anything pops out at you on how to do one simple task, something as easy in iMovie as moving the darned playhead, they tell me, no Mister Gilland. I'll get fired by my boss, says the last agent I spoke to. I'm not trained on iMovie, and if I brick your phone, I'd be responsible. Jimminy H Christmas! For God dang sake! How is visually looking on my screen at where the playhead is, and directing me how to move it back and forth gonna brick my phone! Give me a break for God sake! Really? Seriously?

Take Logic, even with the new version that came out, there are still issues. When I report them, same thing, we can't help. We know Voiceover but not... fill in the blank... app. Oh, we know... fill in the blank... app, but not Voiceover. No, we can't partner together. The last rep I got who said he'd stay on the line with me even if it meant risking him getting in trouble, stayed on mute so they'd not know he was still there. After the Creative department hung up, he unmuted and tried helping me, based on now hearing what they said and what had to be done. Well, this guy hardly knew anything about iOS Voiceover. It clearly was obvious. He kept telling me to interact with areas on the screen, what happens if I tripple tap instead of double tapping, what happens if I touch the cursor, then try sliding left and right without first double tapping. Just do it like a sighted person. What if I try pinching, etc. Well, let's go into Voiceover Settings and see if there is an option to move iMovie playhead. I mean the guy was, I'm sorry to say it, a total idiot!

The bottom line: if I can't rely on Apple to help me with getting my professional job done, then I don't at this point have a choice but to switch to something more reliable and accessible. I don't much care for some of the clunkiness still in Android, but at least if you contact their disability support, they'll help you, and if they can't, they'll push it up to someone who does. I'm willing to stay with Apple, but I need to see some better training. I need to see that people actually there despite their probably good intentions, are more willing to learn their own products. I don't expect for them to learn every in and out of the professional creative apps, but at least learn it enough to help a Voiceover user with the basics. They say they care about accessibility, and I truly think they do for the most part, but then, why give me such a cold shoulder. They help me with anything, but the minute I say anything about a creative media app, or mention the department, they go coocoo on me, regardless the department. Creative will help, but as soon as I mention Voiceover, or "blind" oh, sh** I can't help ya, bud, talk instead to Jane Doe. Basically, I'm getting kicked around the curb by every agent I talk to when it comes to any type Creative Media app made directly by Apple. I dunno what to do! I've tried and tried and tried working with them, but it proves useless every time. I'm honestly completely out of patience at this point.

Options

Comments

Submitted by Brad on Saturday, May 23, 2020

if you know for a fact Android will help you better than apple support, then go for it.

Sorry I can't help but I don't know this software.

Submitted by Chris Hill on Saturday, May 23, 2020

If Android can do what you want, you should switch. Frankly, though, I tried Android and wasn't impressed. This was a couple of years ago, and I found nothing there that worked better than on ios, and a lot of things that didn't work as well. Best thing I can suggest, is be sure of the return policy, you might need to use it.

Submitted by Malthe on Saturday, May 23, 2020

Good luck finding as grown up an app-accessibility ecosystem on Android though. I doubt there is gonna be as comprehensive a media editing suite as you will find on iOS, even with the issue you seem to be having.

Submitted by SeasonKing on Saturday, May 23, 2020

you are completely right, but be calm and think. Don't make hasty decisions, and this is coming from a Android user since childhood, and I have been aware and proficient in using Apple devices, i always suggest people to assess the options, see which 1 fits the requirements and then go about it. Android is good, but IOS is good too.
Even when i am a big android fan, I truely miss some of the apps available on IOS, Seeing AI, media editing apps too. I simply can't afford Apple devices currently, so i go with whatever best option available to me.
Tech support is frustrating nowhere you go and problems exist on android side too. So just research a bit before jumping. As of now, I certainly can't edit any video on android devices because I don't know if any accessible editors exist.

Submitted by gregg on Saturday, May 23, 2020

keyboard shortcuts in the help section for iMovie includes one to move frame by frame for example. Using an external keyboard might work when voiceover gestures won't.

Submitted by Troy on Saturday, May 23, 2020

I will tell you I know someone who is blind who switched to android and now wishes they haven't because of their accessibility.

Submitted by peter on Saturday, May 23, 2020

First of all, much as I like my iPhone, I also like my Windows PC. I am not attached to either the Apple or Windows world. I think we should all figure out what are the functions / tasks that we need to perform and then choose the best option to meet the needs. fortunately we now do have options in the world of accessibility. Unfortunately we often find that most solutions aren't 100% satisfactory. So there will almost always be some trade offs.

If you are interested in Logic and/or some of the multi-media tools in the Apple eco system, you might be interested in following the recent thread on AppleVis which was started by Apple's product manager of Logic. His name is David Earl and he seems to be actively seeking out feedback on accessibility and developing solutions. The thread is here:
https://applevis.com/forum/macos-mac-apps/logic-pro-x-version-105-out-m…
and you might connect with him more directly through that thread.

You also might reach out to the Apple accessibility team rather than the direct general support system. Sometimes it can be frustrating to break into the right support system.

Again though, there are often many options out there, all with their own pros and cons, and you need to try them out and figure out which best meets your needs.

Good luck. This can be frustrating, especially if your job requires a certain type of access.

--Pete
ther,

Submitted by Firefly on Saturday, May 23, 2020

So I’m not sure if this will work on a Mac or not, but there is an app that I recently discovered for the iPhone, called Dolby on. It’s in the music category. You can edit tracks reduce noise you can even record video and I believe you can do the same things with the video tracks that you can do with the audio tracks. Again what do you switch to android or stay with Apple is a personal preference. Personally, I used to have android and switched to Apple and I don’t Ever plan on going back. Best of luck to you and whatever you decide to do though

Submitted by Carlos Taylor on Saturday, May 23, 2020

Instead of asking how to do something with VoiceOver, try asking if the application in question has keyboard commands to do what you are wanting to do. If the application has keyboard shortcuts, that might be far more efficient than doing that particular task with VoiceOver. For example, pressing command+n to create a new document in TextEdit is more efficient than navigating through the menu bar with VoiceOver to select new under the file menu.

Submitted by Justin Philips on Sunday, May 24, 2020

Whatever is difficult, delegate to others. Don't break your head over everything. Others might have the resources and ability to do things better than us.

Submitted by Chris Gilland on Sunday, May 24, 2020

first and foremost, I have read through all of your comments prior to responding.

I appreciate everybody who gave me their input. I am still very seriously considering making the switch once and for all.

for those who have said that they would seriously reconsider Android, as I would probably be disappointed with the accessibility, let me say that I have been an Android user off and on for about the same amount of time that I have been an iPhone user. this dates back to around the end of 2010 going into 2011.

I can understand where some people may feel that iOS is better, and that Android is lacking. I am neither here to get into that argument. what I will say is this. stating that it is highly unlikely that I will find a media solution for doing video editing on the Android platform is completely unfair. it's even more unfair if you have not done your research yourself to search the Google play store. there are tons upon tons of apps out there. it is no different than iOS. if you are determined enough to get a job done, then keep installing third-party apps until you find one that works, and does what you want it to do.

further, I am of the belief that an application does not have to be 100% accessible in order for it to accomplish certain tasks. if an app is 95% inaccessible, but the 5% that does work will allow me to accomplish the task I need to get done, the nats certainly unfortunate that the app is not accessible, for the most part, but at least I can get my job accomplished. should we submit feedback to the developers to get the other 90% text, absolutely, I never meant to imply otherwise. that however does not mean that an app could not still be usable.

I want to briefly touch on the points made about using native keyboard shortcuts rather than using voiceover commands. that's actually an excellent idea. The only trouble with this is, I have gone through the entire iMovie users guide for iOS. this applies both for the iPhone as well as the iPad. it is possible that I am missing something here, but I have not found any keyboard shortcuts that will do any of the things I need to get done using a wireless Bluetooth keyboard. all of the keyboard shortcuts I see are for the mac, which is not what I am using.

As for Logic, I have actually reached out to Dave, and if you look at that topic Applevis which was referenced, you will see that I have posted a few responses within the thread. therefore, yes. I am completely aware of that thread topic.

the final thing I would like to address again for the second time is that I have spoken to the accessibility team, and not the general support team. I have done so both through telephone as well as through email. in both cases, especially email, I have gotten absolutely no success hardly at all with any of the stuff. quite frankly, I have been made to learn most of it on my own. and for the most part, I feel I have done a darn good job at doing so. but things like this sometimes throw me on a wild-goose chase.

one more thing, people have said it is virtually impossible to type on Android, especially with the touch screen, therefore, I would be majorly disappointed if I switched from the iPhone to Android if for no other reason, that would be one. I'm not saying anyone in this particular thread has said that, but I have heard many that have generally speaking. well guess what, I have been doing this completely 100% typing this thread using Android 10 with my pixel 3 XL phone, talk back, and Google chrome. and no. I am not using a wireless Bluetooth keyboard. in fact, just to show how much more rock-solid voice dictation can be, this entire message has been 100% voice dictated. and as you can see, it is pretty much 100% accurate.

I hope everyone has a good day. again, thank you guys for your input, but I am still pretty convinced that I will probably switch. a part of me is still not willing to do so, but I am 99.999% ready to do so.

further, the gentleman who promised that he would call me back with a follow-up from Apple accessibility has not came through on that promise, and it is now been almost four days since he told me he would call. he said he would call me within 24 hours. I'm not very hopeful that he is going to call back.

Submitted by Roxann Pollard on Sunday, May 24, 2020

Hello Chris. I can certainly understand your frustrations, especially when the tech doesn't work as expected and your job depends upon that particular tech. What if you utilize the Android world specifically for those tasks that you can't accomplish, on the iPhone, and then keep the iPhone for your everyday use? I would certainly hate to see you leave the Apple eco system, because, in my own opinion, though Apple has some flaws, I think it is still better overall. If you can use an Android for work and an iPhone for all else, I think you just might be a happy camper. Now when considering the use of two phone lines, one for each device, can you simply use the Android like an iPod and not give it a data plan? If so then you wouldn't have any more expense, except for the initial purchase of the Android phone. I just wanted to share my thoughts with you and I pray for peace as you make these decisions

Submitted by Daniel Angus M… on Sunday, May 24, 2020

Club AppleVis Member

Apple will never get tech support right for Logic users. one time, I was using it and needed help inserting a song into it . I got bounced around fro accessibility to pro apps back to accessibility and it's just not worth it for professional work if you need tech support from Apple for it. you simpoly can not get it. sure, it's accessible but it is expensive when compaired to reaper. Apple's software engeneers are a team, and the accessibility department is a mess, not knowing what the other departments are doing. Appile needs to siriously get their act toether in terms of accessiblity tech support. windows, at least Microsoft are doing well in terms of accessiblityl. for Apple, you've gotta pay for AppileCare ($300.00 Canadian for junlimated accessibility phone calls,) and the Microsoft Disability Answerdesk is free. Apple's accessibility tech support is jnot worth paying for if you need support with Logit, simpop;u they don't have the nessessary professionallism to deal with other department where logic is concerned. since you require a DAW, anythging but apple I'd recamend. Reaper is good, and a lot cheeper and cross-platform. their are JAWS scrips for it, and an NVDA add-on. Android has more support for audio than iOS's almost non-exsistent support. it is also more commmon among sited users. so if U were yoou, I'd dich Apple and go to a more stable, better supported, and ruteible and upgradable via costums ROMS past google upgrading it. Apple are great for most things, but with Logic they are savearly lacking. the thread by the product manager of logic, is simpoly a vane atempt at crdedibility in the DAW space. Apple are despret because everyone is using reaper and windows for recording, and Apple are losing money.
thanks,
Daniel

Submitted by Joe on Sunday, May 24, 2020

Club AppleVis Member

I don't know you man but it sounds like your already making the switch. I read back threw this post and saw no one referencing typing on Android yet you brought this up saying it was possible. Anyway I don't want to argue enjoy Android and all it can offer you I am just happy were at a point where some feel they have a choice because we haven't always been there. Take care.

Submitted by Chris Gilland on Sunday, May 24, 2020

Joe, go back and reread my post again. I specifically said that no one had mentioned anything about typing. I was simply making that as a point generally speaking. Further, I don't wissh to argue either, and, quite honestly, I don't feel I ever was so. I spoke my opinion, and that was that. Also Don't assume. No, I've not totally made up my mind, FYI. I've gotten pretty close to that point, but if Apple truly is willing to help me going forward when I ask the really harder questions, and is willing to quit insulting my intelligence, then I'll stay. Let me be very clear, as people seem to be mangling up my words. So read this part carefully, as I'm only going to say this one more time, so get it right, and not just for you, Joe, but for everyone reading: I'm willing to give Apple one final chance, but that said, I'm gonna have to see more commitment on their part of taking me more seriously than they have apparently been up to this point. No one is out to get you, Joe, nor do I feel any of you are out to get me. I said I wanted to keep this civil, so let's do so. OK? If others love iOS and aren't even willing to give Android a chance, then, fine. Good for them, if they have so and didn't like it, again, good! That's fine. I'm only stating my opinion here. Doesn't mean people have to agree with it. In fact, as strong as this community on Applevis is, I knew up front I'd probably open a can of worms here. I just wish people had more open minds. Some do, but I see constantly those up here, not saying you're one of them, Joe, but generally speaking, and again, I shout that as loud as I can, gen er al lee, speak ing! Make that real? real clear! Generally speaking, it seems like most up here worship Apple, and if anyone says one wrong thing about them that they don't like hearing, well guess what, you just drank juice with Satan, and blasphemed God for all it was worth. All that I'm saying here is Apple isn't meeting my business needs, and I'm shocked that no one at all up here has seen this with Apple. Frankly, I think a lotta you have, but just are in denial. Fine, call me a troll, kick me off this forum, whatever! I'd hope the mods won't, but if they do, they do. I'm simply speaking my opinion. I have not personally attacked Apple. I've said my experience, yes, but never did I say Apple products in a whole were crap. I only said that for me, they didn't meet what I needed any longer.

Submitted by Chris Gilland on Sunday, May 24, 2020

Daniel, first and foremost, thanks for your response. I agree with you in 99.9 percent of what you said. I might would even go slightly into the decimals further than that. There is only one incling of a thing that I have to disagree with. Maybe I am just being naive here, but I disagree with what you said about the Logic thread started by Dave. Is it possible that you're right about it being a vain attempt? Yeah, it is, but for some reason, I feel like perhaps Dave really does care. Remember though, Dave isn't over the accessibility part of Logic. He's just the Logic product manager in general. My point is, Dave only represents one employee. Let's not start wagging fingers at him. I don't even hardly know the guy, so let's cut the dude some slack. For all we know, this guy might be the answer to getting accessibility in the long run improved for us. I always say, give companies and even more so their employees a benefit of a doubt until proven otherwise. I'm sorry to say that in Dave's defense, though I'm not happy with Apple right now at all, I don't have enough evidence to say that Dave is not legitimate. Therefore, I'm gonna believe that he truly does care until he screws up and does something to prove otherwise, which at this point, he hasn't. Over all, what I'm saying is, let's not be too quick to jump the gun on individual people in Apple. I truly think there are people in Apple's organization who really do care. Just because Apple over all isn't really seeming to do much doesn't mean that everyone in the company is that way. We jsut need to find the right channels to talk to. That's gonna be way easier said than done, but, hopefully you get my point. Again, I agree with most everything you have said. That's the only exception that I respectfully disagree on.

Submitted by Chris Gilland on Sunday, May 24, 2020

Roxanne, that's essentially what I've been doing all along. I own the iPhone 11 Pro Max, and also have on a separate cellular plan a Pixel 3 XL, and can easily afford both with my current income. I know there're plenty who can't do that. Trust me, I get it. I was blessed enough to be able to. Technically, I could keep doing what you suggested, and like I've been doing all along. The only reason really that I am so willing at this point in switching completely is, we've been looking at this from the angle of what can I do with Android that I can't with the iPhone. Rather, I'll address your suggestion a bit differently. My question with regards to what you said is, what things with the iPhone can I just as easily achieve with Android? The answer is practically almost everything. And the things I can't do on Android that I can on iOS are so significantly small of things in my view, I just feel with the lack of support from Apple that I've been receiving, it's not worth me continuing keeping the iPhone and Android just for those few little things. Those things are so minor, I could easily sacrifice them. And really honestly, if I looked hard enough in the Google ecosystem, I'm sure I probably could eventually find an equivalent. Again, I'm not here to put down Apple, and just because I may leave the ecosystem doesn't mean I won't continue following things up here on Applevis. I'll still stay a club member, and I'll still contribute from time to time. This doesn't mean goodbye. Further, if anyone needs help with an Apple product, I'll still do my best to answer questions where I can. I never said Apple products were bad. Yeah, there're some flaws, but Android has flaws too. This isn't about which is good, which is bad. This is about 2 things. First, the fact that I can't do my job effectively right now with iOS. Second, Every time I've called Apple for help, if it's a real simple question that can be answered in 2 minutes or less, then usually I have great success talking to them regardless the department. But when I call with questions which are more on an advanced level, you may as well forget it. That's what this thread's about. I'm not saying Apple's perfect, nor am I saying Android's perfect. I'm just saying it would be nice for once if Apple support would take the advanced questions more seriously, and get more training on how to help us customers so that when advanced questions arise, they aren't just sitting there dumbfoundedly clueless having to make excuses to cover their asses.

Submitted by Joel on Sunday, May 24, 2020

You can’t move the playhead. You have to hit play, wait for the spot you want, then hit pause and insert your media. I use iMovie all the time for my YouTube videos and I would be willing to write a guide on it for iOS if anyone is interested.

Submitted by Chris Gilland on Sunday, May 24, 2020

Joel, I know you'd do this out of generosity, but, seriously, for your time and work, I'd be happy to PayPal you 5 bucks for your time, if you'd be willing to do this, then link to the guide in this forum topic discussion thread. Obviously, I'd need your e-mail to do that. A few questions though that you may could answer. First off, if I double tap play, is there a way to then quickly jump back to the very beginning, or the very end, either/or in my iMovie project? I assume that you are speaking of iMovie for iOS. I don't wanna do this with the mac. Second of all, why is it when I bring up the project, double tap on share, then on save video, it asks me what size I want to make the video, small media, actual, you know... the usual options. Regardless which of these I hit, it won't do it. It tells me an error occured. No matter what I do I can't get around this.

Finally, here's my other question. When using the video camera in iOS 13.5, has anyone noticed that when you start recording the video, when you go play it back, the first 10 to 15 seconds of audio within the video is really quiet and gradually fades in to full volume? This absolutely didn't happen before 13.5. This is super super super annoying! What if the first few seconds capture something really cute that I wouldn't want to be almost silent, and what if it's something I could never audibly replicate again easily? Well, because of this stupid fade in bug, I've now lost it, as it's so dang quiet. Before anyone says this isn't a bug, your phone is having issues, then you tell me this: why have I called Apple, and this one, they actually were! able to reproduce. I'm just wondering how you, Joel, are getting around that issue. It's not just the 11 Pro Max either. This is happening regardless the model of device. It seems to be isolated to 13.5. Anyway, if you can't address all these questions, then just say, I don't know the answer to your question about... whatever... but please, if you're gonna respond, will you at the very very least at least acknowledge every one of my questions? I'll be awaiting your response, and thank you again profusely for being so kind to put something together. I'm gonna take you up on your offer. As I said, I'll even pay you 5 bucks privately, if you're willing to do this.

Submitted by Joel on Sunday, May 24, 2020

Chris: No need to pay me. I’ll do it all for free. But to answer your questions:
1: there is no direct way to jump to the end. When you first create your project, and hit play, it will automatically jump to the end. I find this very annoying. you can however jump to the very beginning by hitting previous clip. The amount of times you would have to hit it depends on how many clips there are in your project. For example, if there were two clips in my project, I would hit previous clip three times to get to the beginning. The extra time is just to make sure that I really am at the beginning.
2: The reason it asked you how big you want the file to be when you export is so that it knows what quality you want it at. for YouTube, I would usually export either 720P or 1080P. Both of these would be HD.
3: have you checked your Internet? Maybe that’s why it gives you an error. Mine always works when I export.
4: I haven’t updated to 13.5, and now that you mentioned that bug exists, I won’t update. Thank you for letting me know of that bug.

Submitted by roman on Monday, May 25, 2020

Hello. Do what is best for your job. I love apple, and endroid equally

Submitted by Daniel Angus M… on Monday, May 25, 2020

Club AppleVis Member

hello all,

upon rereading this thread, chris, you right not to through Dave under the bug like I did with my last comment. it was just me pd with Apple Accessibility in genneral. let's give him a chance, and we'll see if Logic becomes more accessible than it is as of version 10.5. I've read some of the newer comments on his thread, and he actually wants to make Logic better. Since he is the product manager, he has the power to listen to us and make dessitions to make Logic more accessible than it is all ready. according to some comments on his thread, live loops and the new sampler are not yet the most accessible and/or usible with VoiceOver. he is working on those, not sure what that means, but he seems like he cares about accessiblity for us, and well, Google for Android has gotton werst, not better. when I first purchased a Nexus 5, their was the eyes free liost on Google groups, where users of android devices, could post about anything related to Android. then there were some 'Bad Apples, no pun intended', who were posting very hertful comments. the head of Google Accessiblity steped in. then we all got guidelines to follow. the perposed of that list changed from anything to do about android, to only google products on the platform. fine, less off topic trafic. then, they put out an announcement telling people that the eyes free list would be announce only. since then, no dialog with users commenced. and before their disability support team, Google were activly answering user questions. since the creatation of that team, Google fell scilent on the eyes free list. when the disability support team was announced, Google innishaly oppened up to eyes free list members only, with a request that we use the dissabillity support team via email, to ask questions, prefeering ones that users all ready new the answers to. after that innishal beta test, so to speak was completed, Google stopped posting to the eyes free list. I'm sure over the years, the google disability support team has gotten quite good, and training was provided to the representatives on the team. I'm sure whatever you decide will be good. just know that we at AppleVis will always be there along with you, answering questions where we can.
thanks,
Daniel

Submitted by Josh Kennedy on Wednesday, May 27, 2020

not so fast. you will have an even worse time with android and video editing. and forget about braille. the talkback screen reader is a bit laggy on android whereas voiceover does not have this issue. And I hope you like all kinds of l-based angle gestures, down right, up left, down left, etcetera. Oh and I also hope you like talkback completely freezing on large websites, and randomly jumping focus so that reading websites is very difficult. not to mention if you want your android device to sound like apple, you have to spend money on the vocalizer voices. android is ok for a phone and occasional basic things. but forget about braille, forget about editing, forget about good bluetooth keyboard qwerty keyboard and braille support because you will not get that on android. just go buy an iPhone and a laptop with AMD ryzen 3 processor off amazon and you'll have a better experience.

Submitted by Josh Kennedy on Wednesday, May 27, 2020

yes you can afford or should be able to afford IOS devices. get the iPod touch on amazon with latest IOS for $195. and latest iPad on amazon for $279 or so. The iPhone SE starts at $400. So they are becoming quite affordable these days I think.

Submitted by Josh Kennedy on Wednesday, May 27, 2020

really all my life I just use windows for recording audio and video. Why not get a computer with a ryzen 3 processor off amazon and 4 or 8gb of ram and a built-in ssd. Windows has worked great for me for the little amount of audio editing I have done.

Submitted by Chris Gilland on Wednesday, May 27, 2020

Josh, not everyone has the luxury money to go out and just buy a computer like that. Besides, that isn't the point.

Submitted by Josh Kennedy on Wednesday, May 27, 2020

I recommended the computers with ryzen 3 because 1. they are good computers and 2. They cost a little more than a cheap iPad, around $350 well between $350 and $470 depending on how much ram and storage you want. For whatever reason the computers with AMD processors are less expensive than computers with intel processors. Not sure why but that's how it is at least on amazon. If you want to try out android, you could get a nokia 6.2, 4.2, or 2.1 or 2.2 I think it is. Those all run the latest android. Personally I like having both an IOS device and also an android device. Sometimes one can do things a bit better than the other for some reason just because how the screen readers work on each platform. But I still have the windows machine for windows-only audio games. This laptop has an AMD a6 and 4gigs ram its 4 or so years old and still runs good. It got 5 star reviews when I bought it a few years ago and the ryzen 3 computers also have mostly 5 star reviews. Next month I have to get a new iPod touch because the one I had, broke. And I also want to get one of the $280 iPads off amazon for my son and I to share. Stay away from the $99 RCA tablets, they are slow and never get updated.

Submitted by Chris Gilland on Wednesday, May 27, 2020

OK Josh, if you think computers are so affordable for "everyone," your words, not mine, then why don't you get with me privately, and I'll give you my address, then you can buy and have one shipped to me. How's that? OK then.

Submitted by Joel on Thursday, May 28, 2020

Because a guide would take too much time, and there are things in iMovie that could be better explained in words rather than writing, I have decided to turn my guide into a podcast. I would break it down into parts so it’s not just one long podcast. Is anyone interested in this?

Submitted by peter on Thursday, May 28, 2020

First of all, it is good that we at least have choices these days as to which technology best meets our needs. Unfortunately no solution is perfect or can do everything. That is why we (or anyone, even sighted) needs to have as many tools in their toolbox as they can. That way they have the best chance of being able to use the best tool for each specific task. Even then, technologies change and we need to keep abreast of new tools.

Secondly, on the matter of tech support, I have rarely found tech support from any company to be very good even if the issue isn't related to accessibility. I find that, as a user, I often know more than any of the tech support people and have a better chance of finding a solution via Google or asking colleagues. After all, who do you think they hire to do tech support? If the tech support folks were experts in then they would probably have jobs developing the technologies rather than answering questions.

--Pete

Submitted by Endarion on Sunday, May 31, 2020

Hi!
So what do I mean by this? I have spent considerable time on the phone talking to Apple tech support agents and, more often than not, sooner or later I found myself getting irritated. Since I usually don't lose my composure or fly off the handle easily, I decided to do some self-analysis to find out to what I react in this unproductive and exhausting way.
What I eventually discovered is that to a large degree it is the language they use. For example, it's never about a bug, not even about an issue you're having, but always about an experience. In my world model, I'm running into an accessibility-related bug with an iOS app made by Apple. In their language, the app is totally accessible as it's made by Apple but I am having a less than delightful experience for some weird reason, a reason, I might add, that probably has at least as much to do with me as it has with the app. Imagine being at a restaurant and complaining that your food tasted horrible. Now imagine service translating your message as follows: The food tastes great, as it's made by us, and for some strange reason you had a less than delightful experience with it and should probably get your head checked, or at least get some training in appreciating this kind of experience. Wouldn't you agree it's somewhat natural to feel talked down to, or at least talked at, in that kind of situation? And is it a wonder that the word "condescending" comes to mind?
If anyone at Apple reads this: Bugs exist, even in your software. And when we run into them, we're not just out of sync with the wonderful experience you have designed for us, or too stupid to be grateful for it. Rather, we are painfully aware of having a problem with your software, and no amount of neuro-linguistic reframing will turn the Vogon poetry into Shakespeare.
I hope you had a delightful and enlightening experience reading this.
Best,
Endarion

Submitted by Devin Prater on Sunday, May 31, 2020

Club AppleVis Member

You know, I hope this thread stands out to any Apple employee that reads Applevis, and I dearly hope that they do read the experiences of their users.

Chris, why are you so hung up on iMovie? I mean, you said yourself that on Android, you'd have to go through many third party apps. Why not try something like Dolby On or some other, more accessible app? Why not go through several third party apps on iOS before jumping ship completely? :)

On using Apple devices for jobs, I definitely wouldn't use Apple's own apps for anything I need professionally done. Even on a Mac, I don't use Pages, Keynote, or Numbers. I use Markdown for writing, so I've used Emacs, with Emacspeak (very advanced, don't touch unless you are prepared to Google and mess around and don't ask the developer of Emacspeak or you'll be directed to read the manual), with its Markdown-mode. Now, I'm looking a lot at Ulysses, with its simple layout and the amazing ability to navigate by heading in documents just by using the Voiceover command, and it syncs with my phone, useful as I go outside and write more often.

I've also noticed many bugs in MacOS specifically. The most noticeable is that when reading a page in Safari, VoiceOver thinks its in a text field, so reads "Insertion point between " and all that. No screen reader on Windows would ever been caught released with that bug. That would be one of the most glaring issues a screen reader would face, and it would greatly diminish user trust in that screen reader. But its Apple so we have no other choice but to deal with such an embarrassing issue. I've learn to just ignore it, but that's not a fix, and I'd hate to show off my technology to a boss and have to hope they don't know as much about AT to ask why it says that. Very embarrassing. They fixed it in iOS though, so hopefully that trickles down to MacOS in a few years.

So I know, Apple isn't the best when it comes to maintenance of their accessibility. But are other platforms better? Does Google really care that much more? I mean, look at TalkBack. Google is the AI-first company, right? Well, where is AI in TalkBack? I mean, VoiceOver, even on the Mac, has the ability to read text in images, and on iOS can even describe them a tad. Can TalkBack? VoiceOver on iOS can connect to a braille display. Can TalkBack? And no, BrailleBack doesn't count, as it is a separate app. Does TalkBack even have a way to define custom pronunciations? Keep in mind, that if you switch, you'll be using this phone for, I assume, everything that you use the iPhone for. Now, you can definitely keep both phones. I hope you'll just do that. After all, Apple accessibility isn't all bad, and I hope that there come real changes to tech support at least. All tech support staff should be trained in using Voiceover with their products.

Also, I very much agree with the language issue brought by the previous comment. It is condescending when a huge issue I'm dealing with, which stops me from using an app effectively, is called "an experience," as if I'm just some statistic they write down and pass on to their supervisor with never a second thought to how that experience, combined with the daily discriminations I face, make being blind far, far from being just a simple annoyance. Unicode characters being used to write posts on social media, making them indecipherable to me, even books using characters like "dingbat negative sans serif digit one" instead of regular numbers because font changes are somehow hard, images without descriptions, other inaccessible apps, wondering how much food I have until I have to start calling Dominoes to get food because my home doesn't exist on their map and the app being very hard to use and Door Dash? Instacard? What? Alabama has never heard of such services. It all adds up. The least these supposed accessibility experts could do is train tech support in other departments, use language that means something and not just some dry, useless junk that takes the humanity from us and makes us palatable to those who, in charge, would prefer not to care about us. Leave that to the government organizations, right? They care for the poor blind people, right? I mean, we're Apple! We make money! That's what we do, not consider who might use our pro apps and call our tech support. Right?

I really feel bad for the guy who called you, and told you straight up that he might lose his job just by trying to go one step further and help you. And yet, he did it anyway. He should freaking be getting a raise right now! These people, in such big companies, are the reason I still care enough to complain about all this, give my hopes and desires that these overgrown, insensitive, money-grabbing, headphone-jack-less companies may either one day get a clue and care about people with disabilities again and not just listen to the loud majority of tech reviewers and go on as usual. If more people at apple would buck the trend and do what is good, and not just what will save their own skin, Apple would change quickly to be better. But I'm sure that one guy is one of very few that would actually try to help, instead of following a script to increase their numbers and get a raise.

I have an Apple Watch, series 3. It was amazing, until the battery started dying more quickly, and the screen began to come loose from the watch itself. I did an iMessage support thing with Apple, and they told me to take a picture of the watch. I told them that I'm blind, but that I'd try. And what did I freaking get from that experience? What did I get from the anxiety of having to take a picture, of not knowing if I'd taken a good one, or a bad one, or didn't even get the watch in the frame at all? "You'll have to take it to the Apple Store for that issue." Yeah. This was in, like, March. And yes, safe to say, it's still on its charging stand, because I haven't managed to talk myself into contacting them again. And of course now that the Apple Stores are reopening in Alabama, they can just forget that I'm blind again, and just say "oh well like we said before, take it to an Apple Store." I'm just, so very tired of all this. I desperately hope that Microsoft is at least a little better with their Windows 10 X on phones. Maybe they, unlike Apple, will do more than freaking talk talk til, yap yap yap about accessibility and actually implement things, make things great and enjoyable and actually useful! And most of all, I hope that they actually care. From the top, to the bottom, and work together. But of course, they're a big corporation too, and I know that I shouldn't put hope into any of them, Google included. Because they all talk so much, then release time rolls around and we find that there are so many new shiny delights to sighted people, that they are given much of what they wanted and asked for, and we're handed crumbs. Oh, maybe we get a shiny crumb or two, AI here, better speaking of Outlook there, but still crumbs, and not much that we've asked for for years! Then, we're told that that's a lot, that that's a feast for us, that they've done so much for us, and so on. Then, we eat it and go home and try to figure out which of these companies gave us the most crumbs.

But, Apple is a large corporation. Even sighted people have had to deal with the "no interdepartmental help" law. I don't understand it. If I need help, I ask whoever may be able to help me. Well, when I can gather enough courage to even consider asking for help, that is. This arrogant sort of "every department for themselves" thing only makes things harder. There was someone who wanted to pitch Apple a feature for including nearby Apple Pay locations. It didn't go anywhere because people had to have meetings about having meetings to see if people from different departments could see about including the code already developed by this guy.

So, in my pessimism and cynicism, I'd say that not much will change, and you'll just have to find another app, or ask people on the Anatad (Android) list, and see if one of them uses a video editor app. Really, I'd just do this on a computer. Shoot the video on the phone, edit it on a computer, because we blind people just ain't important enough to be able to escape a computer, no matter what low vision people who aren't completely blind and who don't have to deal with the frustrations and bull crap we have to deal with say, and that's coming from a person who is even trying to go outside more in this time of absolute isolation and do work outside with a phone and braille display to improve my mental health.

Edit: I must revise one point, the Mac bug about web content seen as text fields, that only happens in Mail now, from what I've seen. So there have been some fixes, just, as I've said, crumbs.

Submitted by Brad on Sunday, May 31, 2020

If you save up. no one is saying you must buy one now but tech costs money man, that's just how life is.

If you've got another system to work on, work on that system until you've saved up enough money for a laptop, it isn't that hard if you cut back on takeaway and things like that for a month or two. My point is; it can be done if you really want one.

Submitted by Chris Gilland on Sunday, May 31, 2020

In response to your highly rude comment, let me start by saying, you, nor anyone else have any clue about my current financial situation, so telling me I can afford and to just save up is incredibly innappropriateinappropriate! Secondly, this is none of you all's business, but let me say that under normal conditions, I *could* afford a computer. In fact, I currently have 3 laptops, one of which is an older macbook pro. I said I couldn't afford a computer right now. I didn't say I never could. Look! My uncle is on his death bed! We literally just moved him to Hospice! He could die today, dammit! I gotta have money to figure out if during this Covid19 pandemic, if I can get down there to him. That's gonna take money. I may have to pitch in for partial funeral arrangements. That, too, takes money. Further, Since this pandemic, I've been temporarily out of work not getting my usual paycheck. So, don't you dare be telling me about what I can afford and what I can't. Mind your own *** business. If it's just how it is, then maybe you wanna consider my life's circumstances in the present moment now that I shared. Quite frankly, Brad, you owe me an apology!

Submitted by Brad on Sunday, May 31, 2020

I'm not going to apologise because it's true, if you or anyone including myself wants something, we have to save up for it. the reason I directed the comment at you was because you were mentioning how hard some people have it and I get that but if you really want something that badly and you earn cash each month, be it from a job or disability money, you can save up for it. It might take you a year or two but if you want that laptop so badly, you do it.

Submitted by Mitchell on Sunday, May 31, 2020

Chris,
Before I start, I would like to say that noone but you knows your situation and how best for you to financially navigate through it.
However, in my (albeit limited) experience, there is so much more that you are able to edit and control with the Mac or PC audio-wise and video-wise. All in all, I think it's a much better use of your money than buying an Android device for video editst. i honestly just think it's way easier to navigaffe and get what you need to done.

Submitted by Brad on Sunday, May 31, 2020

With a laptop if you have editing to do you can use goldwave, audacity, reaper, and I'm sure there's mac options too.

With a phone alone you might be able to get some editing done but it will probably be faster on a laptop. I know for a fact that you can drop markers using goldwave and audacity and with that you can cut and copy slices of audio. I don't know about video though but as others have said if you really can't find a tool to use video then perhaps passing it on to someone who can would be a good idea.

Submitted by Marc on Sunday, May 31, 2020

Chris, this is not an attack. Nobody directed messages specifically at you. You're not coming off too well throughout this entire thread of messages. People have provided plenty of good and appropriate comments. We live in a time where everybody has choices. Apple has choices to make regarding their products and you get to make choices about where to spend your money. If a non-Apple product makes sense then buy it. Ranting and raving is not going to make anything more accessible.

Submitted by Igna Triay on Sunday, May 31, 2020

While you can do this on the phone, doing either on a laptop or an external keyboard would be quicker.

Submitted by Chris Gilland on Sunday, May 31, 2020

I never once said this was an attack, nor that I took it as such. Further, I voiced my opinion. All be it my strong opinion, but nonetheless my opinion. I had no intention in the first place of this thread turning into this. To be honest, I have no proof of this, so I won't assume, however, this sounds like something Mark Taylor from MacVisionaries or that Cara Quin would have said, but we'll leave it at that... telling me to quit while ahead. I'm not here to bash anyone. I can't help that one person here made a very disrespectful comment not even considering first that my personal dynamics may not be the same as others'. I'm not responding to this thread any longer. IN fact, I'd be just as thrilled if others didn't either, and even more! thrilled, if the mods just removed it altogether. For the record though, I'll say this one more time. I never thought anyone was personally attacking me, and regardless what anyone else thinks, that's the truth, final, circa!

Submitted by Brad on Sunday, May 31, 2020

The thing is Chriss, my comment wasn't just directed at you, it was directed at everyone who needs to learn to save up to get what they want including myself.

If I want thing x, then I need y amount of money, or however it goes, and in order to get that money I would need to save up a certain amount of pounds.

I directed it at you because it was you that said something along the lines of people being rude and not understanding other peoples money situation. I think we all know that blind stuff along with every day tech costs money.

People were just pointing out that you could do thing x on a computer and that it would be quicker.

As they were pointing that out, I'm just pointing out the fact that if you need a laptop and don't have the cash for it but have cash coming in, your best bet would be to save up for it. But you have two laptops if I remember correctly so probably don't need one. my question then becomes why would you think my reply is directed at you? Surely if you have two laptops already you could have written something like, Thanks Brad, I already know about saving up but don't need to at the moment because I already have two laptops but instead you chose to get mad and strike out.

I'd recommend taking a couple of deep breaths and calming down. it's up to you if you want to respond or not but I wasn't out to get you personally and was just pointing out that tech costs money and if anyone wants it be they on government money or a basic house income, they're going to need to save up for it if they don't have the cash.

Submitted by Joe on Sunday, May 31, 2020

Club AppleVis Member

Don't worry y'all he will write again he loves the drama. Clearly people have given you tons of options you mention having a Iphone and Android phone already so would getting a computer be that much more out of the question? I hae seen Chris on other lists he is usually a bit over the top like he has been here. Devin tossed out several ideas none of which you responded to as did others. Good day mate.

Submitted by Chris Gilland on Monday, June 1, 2020

Guys, please cut me today a little slack. No excuse intended, but my uncle just passed away today, whom I was extremely close to. It's been really really hard, and so part of my snapping nature earlier could have been a result of my stress from this news, and from the day over all. I apologize not so much for the things I said, however, admittedly, the way it probably came across was a bit stronger than intended. Life's too short to get pissed over this, or to argue about it. Let's just please move on. It's in the past, or so I'd hope. Again, I'm willing to at least apologize for my strong reaction. Joe, I don't appreciate you talking publicly up here about my conduct on other lists. That's no one's business. Please keep my social life elseware away from this forum. Frankly, I don't think anyone else really cares, and even if they do, it's irrellavent. Can we now please dear God return to Apple related things and quit making this place a drama playground? We're all adults here. I've apologized. Let's move on!

Submitted by Brad on Monday, June 1, 2020

Hey chriss, it's alright, as you say; we're all adults, let's just move on.

Submitted by Brian Giles on Monday, June 1, 2020

Having tried my hand at tech support and failing, I have a new-found respect for what they deal with whenever I have to contact tech support of any kind. When you're dealing with a constant stream of customers, I can totally understand the individual personal experience being lost on them. Maybe that support person had a supervisor breathing down their neck, and may have been feeling pressure from manage above them to get results because they're new. I wish tech support, phone sales etc. could get away from being numbers-based, because I think that puts too much pressure on them. Then again, I don't know of a better way to measure performance.

I'm also incredibly cynical more often than not. I get it; a lot of people have never met a blind person, so we have to educate. But having to do that over and over and over gets really exhausting.

Chris, I'm sorry for your loss. I went through the same thing recently, having a friend and co-worker pass away earlier this year, and my grandma who I was really close to last fall. Everyone deals with that kind of stuff in their own way. So do whatever you need to for yourself right now.

So I use iMovie on a daily, making TTS videos to build up a business. Now I have WavePad to work with, but when I just had iMovie, it was a pain in the ass! Mixing files with iMovie should be as easy as 1 2 3, right? "Nah, we're Apple so we'll make your life a living hell." Time scrubbing in iMovie is an ultimate pain in the ass because you can't with VO. I've tried it several times, emailed Apple Accessibility, and got the "Oh, what's iMovie? Can't help ya son." Time scrubbing in WavePad is about as easy as (at least on windows), going to the edit menu, pressing "M" until you here "Mix with File," choose the file, and kaboom. Mixed. In WavePad, time scrubbing is as easy as holding the arrow keys until you reach the point at which you want to either insert a file, trim, add an affect, etc. I would like to point out though, that if you're using JAWS, WavePad won't play nice. NVDA works with it so seemelessly its like you're in heaven. If it means your job, hop to Android. Hopefully in iOS 14 iMovie will be a hell of a lot more accessible.

- I'd also like to note that the closest thing in iMovie to scrubbing time is hitting the stupid "Previous Clip" button, but that only sends you backto the beginning.

TL;DR: Apple needs to get off their asses and create a better iMovie app.

Submitted by Clayton Jacobs… on Tuesday, June 23, 2020

I have experienced the same issue you have described with getting help with Apple's creative apps. There is a Google group for accessibility questions on Logic, and the people in that group are thorough. Andre Louis could help you with this. Knowing him, he may have already replied to this post. I haven't seen the other comments on it.

Submitted by Trenton Matthews on Tuesday, June 23, 2020

With Android 11 coming up, you will be able to customize all gestures. Not just the L-Shaped gestures like before, but also the Multi-Finger Gestures which are still being refined as of the latest Android 11 Public Beta.

As I rock an iPhone 11 in Purple and my Galaxy S10E in Pink (which has been paid off), I'm glad to use both of them. Even if the S10E is now just a Wifi-Only phone.