One Voice - A polite discussion of how we, the community, can voice issues to Apple

Good morning.
First let me start by sharing that my first PC was an Apple C. My First iPhone was 4, them 4s, 5, 5s, 6, 7 and XS. Now I have Series 5.
I do like Apple products when they work and for most part they do work well. However the issue of bugs is a concern and when the issues of bugs are brought up, people start to call you names because they feel that Apple does not do anything wrong. I spent $1000 and $350 for an Apple product, (iPhone XS and Series 5), I expect them to work well.
We need to make news magazines aware such as 9 to 5, Apple insider and others about issues regarding bugs related to accessibility so they can report them. Most of them do not know much about the issues we face when we have bugs and how long it takes Apple to address them.
Also I respect the folks from applevis and appreciate their work, if they are going to invite a representative from Apple they need to ask the hard questions that concern us. If Apple do not care for this, them do not give them a platform to talk about how wonderful they are. I am ware that they are not reporters or news people but we do not need to hear how great, or wonderful Apple are regarding accessibility. Apple is just following the law concerning accessibility specially since they provide products to governments agencies and I believe there is a law concerning accessibility.
Now before people start to call me names, let me remind them that I had been an Apple user for longer than most of the people here and I do like Apple products when they work and for the most part, they do work. However when Apple is not addressing bugs, we need to express our thoughts specially since we purchase the products and we did not get them for free or our auntie Matilda or a agency gave them to us.

I am in absolute agreement with holding apple accountable for their shortcomings through the media. I also think that this be greatful for any accessibility that apple gives us among us needs to go. I really get tired of the few that keep saying this when we have huge outstanding bugs that have not been fixed and we have to put up with for months on end.

Hi.
Firstly, thank you for opening this topic. This is very important. Actually, this issue is not specific for apple but all companies.
However, İt seams that Apple is the most eye -catching company in the world when the accessibility is concerned.
İn every conferences apple introduces Manny hardwares and softwares, and they always use words like "Spectacular, stunning..." ETC. But accessibility often isn't the main topic.
I'm Both an İphone and a Mac user. I think Catalina is the most stable version in recent years on the Mac but two years had to pass for apple to address the bugs.
So, I agrree with all of you, the bugs we encountered should be told through by the mainstream sites like Mac Rumors. Maybe this will make the process of addressing bugs faster.
Lastly, sorry for any mistakes, English is my second language.

There are some bugs that just endure. From release to release. We should list these bugs and send to Sara Herrlinger. Before sending, Have all willing to sign it. Along with a courteous synopsis how that bug affects their productivity.
To be clear. Those bugs that just never get resolved. You could also cc: Tim Cook.

What are thir emails? I agree. We should let the media know about this, but we shouldn't count on them doing the work for us. I mean, we cant just tell this to the media then sit back. We need to report this to apple as well. I would suggest creating a petition for apple to fix bugs and to take accessibility more seriously. The bugs to be fixed should include i believe ones that have been around for a while, and those that came with ios 13. I agree, apple should be held accountable, yes, but we need to look at the larger picture here. Our main goal should be to raise awareness of accessibility and that not just sighted people use phones, etc. People need to know about accessibility, I believe this is the first step in making things better. To the poster who said we are not second class s Citizens, your 100 percent right; we are not. We are like everyone else. Sadly, the world, views us a second elass

Not sure of Sara’s email, but I’ve written Tim Cook before. His is tcook@apple.

I think if you are publicly beta testing you can go to bugreport.apple.com and even if you are not you can submit stuff that way. But frankly I see no way of collecting stuff as I've seen some horrible reports on here and other places. I've read stuff such as "it don't work" with out any detail and when I ask for it I get "I don't know, and I can't find it." when we give instructions sometimes I get "I still don't know and I give up." I think that reporting bugs should be done thus.

1. Submit sys diags for ios and mac os.
2. Report the problem
3. Do a time and date stamp with use cases and steps to reproduce.
4. Keep submitting the bug through updates or every week if you have not heard back.

The sys diag files can be huge so do it through dropbox if you have to. Also make sure yoru bug reports a are at least 2 or 3 pages in length if you can. I've gotten positive feedback from developers and companies I've tested for over the past almost 20 years of me doing this behind the seens.

Beta feedback actually has its own app. It’s very easy to use. It will upload system diagnostics directly. I suggest all to enroll in beta.
I reported a Siri issue for 13.2.2 and they asked to confirm it was fixed in 13.2.3. It indeed was.
Large enrollment in beta by blind consumers is our greatest advocacy.

I do also believe that reproduction is important. It’s not always feasible, but does help diagnose underlying issue.
I also don’t like the dismissive attitudes of bugs. Also holding Apple as some false prophet.
We must respect and empathize with each experience. We have different abilities and disabilities. This also means hundreds, if not thousands of unique settings and configurations.
An unlabeled button isn’t the end of the world, but a bug I report isn’t less, or more important than someone else’s.
Common courtesy and respect can unite for a greater good. We should also be provided a good UI experience. Not because I’m blind, but because I have paid for what has been marketed to me as an accessible product. Accessible, not Accessible-ish.

I am sure that many people reported bugs during the beta of iOS 13. specially the great people who are in charge of this webpage. I do not recall ever getting a warning from applevis about a major release like applevis did concerning iOS 13 and iOS 13.1.

There was a moment a year ago where I realized that posting issues to this forum was serving little more purpose than all of us venting and bonding over unresolved bugs and annoyances. I was surprised to learn that hes reports don't actually make it to Apple. Here we have this huge, thorough and wide reaching repository of bug reports but nothing comes of them. It's still up to individuals to submit their reports directly to Apple. Why doesn't this site have a mechanism for compiling and submitting mass bug reports to Apple? As the OP correctly notes, such reports are far more powerful and visible in mass than from individuals.

So, it just so happens I'm currently enrolled in a six month coding boot camp where I'm learning full stack web development. Perhaps it could be a cool and useful project once my training is complete to build a web site that serves exactly this purpose -- aggregating accessibility bug feedback and translating it into something clean, consistent and thorough that could be conveyed to Apple and other big companies.

While I was searching for an app on Applevis, I saw in the list of categories a section on bug reports. You can find it at
https://www.applevis.com/bugs

This is nice to report bugs but if Apple takes their time to fix and focus more on bugs that affect sighted people what is the point? We need more. How long we had reported bugs without much success specially those nice people who use Braille. Apple tend to fix bugs when a major iOS is out such as iOS 14. Hoping that iOS 13.2 fixes most of the bugs but I am not holding my breath.

I have just a couple quick comments for now.

The first is that we have previously explored options for using AppleVis to improve the quality and quantity of bug reports made to Apple.

One option that we thought had potential was a form on the website that would mirror the form used in Apple's feedback app - in that it would allow people to provide specific and detailed information on such things as their hardware, software version, and the steps to reproduce the bug - the data from this form would be emailed immediately and directly to Apple using the details submitted as the email sender (so, we would not in any way be a ‘gatekeeper’ between end users and Apple).

There were some potential issues that would need to be addressed or accepted, but Apple made it very clear at the time that they would not support or endorse such a tool. It was stressed that an email sent direct by the person experiencing the bug was the preferred method, and that any attempt to coordinate reports would not be welcomed.

Secondly, Apple will be aware beforehand of bugs that we detail in any OS release announcement, as we do what we can to make sure that Apple's Accessibility Team know about bugs as early as possible.

I don't want this post to come across as negative towards this thread and the suggestions made. However, I do feel it necessary to point out that some of the suggestions already made would need to have Apple's support if they were to achieve anything. And, being frank, my experience suggests that Apple might not be supportive of some of the suggestions in this thread (certainly in regard to orchestrating bug reports).

However, do please keep the suggestions coming, as anything which can make it easier and faster for Apple to address bugs is in all of our best interests.

Yes, he is correct. I do not have twitt or facebook so for those of you who do have them, 9 to 5, apple insider and others that post in youtubeand have the above, let them know about apple lack of concern when bugs are not address of the same time others are address. I do put comments in those video that talk about Apple releases.

In response to David's comment #27, perhaps a guide could be written and posted on the site describing what should (and should not) be included in a bug report to Apple, and how to get the information. It could stress the importance of including the steps to reproduce the problem because I know this goes a long ways to getting the problem fixed. It could include who to contact and how to do so. It might include in the introduction David's explanation of why Applevis doesn't aggrigate bug reports and send them to Apple.

Just a suggestion...

many people prefer blaming themselves rather than holding apple accountable, at least subconsciously. the focus seems to be on the quantity and quality of our bug reports, like we're not doing good enough to let apple know. the truth is beta testers had reported these bugs before production release, and ordinary users have contacted apple as well, and hhow about apple's inhouse engineers? as for whether apple want to address these issues in a timely manner or at all is another question.

so stop blaming yourself, you're doing just fine. and if you find ways to do better, i'm sure you'll all do so. i have never come across any company whose customers think at least 50% of the problems they experience are their fault.

so i heard the call bug was fix in 13.2, they why can't apple release a small update now to ease the pain? apple has released updates for less. that ought to tell you something.

as for criticizing apple, why not? this is the social media where vi people talk about their apple product--hardware, software and apps, it's like a special intrest bar. so if someone is ranting about some issues in life and you come up and say you got to take responsibility for yourself, you should be grateful for being alive, guess what happens.

Here's our existing guide on reporting bugs to Apple: “Found an Accessibility Bug in iOS, iPadOS, macOS, watchOS or tvOS? Here’s How to Let Apple Know and Why You Should”.

We link to this guide on the main landing page of the site's Bug Tracker and also routinely mention it in our major OS version release posts.

One of the reasons we retired our Campaign of the Month was that several developers told us that cookie cutter or template email campaigns actually had a negative effect, and that they were more likely to be receptive to approaches to improve accessibility if receiving personal and unique emails.

In the case of bug reports, there is the added factor that people might have the best of intentions when emailing Apple to ask that they fix something, but if they report a bug that they haven't personally experienced, they might actually make it harder to isolate the problem - in that some bugs will be specific to certain hardware, software version or use cases, and knowing this helps developers to isolate the cause. Essentially, we don't want emails being sent which only serve to ‘muddy the waters’.

Getting bugs prioritized is very much a numbers game - the more people effected, the more likely it is that a company will allocate developer time - but it's also important that the developers have accurate and detailed information on the nature and scope of a bug.

All of that to say, is that in my opinion we need to identify a strategy that combines both quantity and quality of feedback to Apple. I have no doubt that if we do this, Apple's Accessibility Team would be happy too - in that we make it easier for them to find and resolve bugs, whilst also giving them a stronger case when it comes to asking for developer time.

It's worth saying, I think, that Apple does look at this site including the discussion forums. I've been to the Covent Garden Apple Store a few times now for one reason or another, and on more than one occasion when I've had a problem with my iPhone the technician has looked at Applevis to see what others are saying. One time I remember explaining about the deterioration in the UK Siri female voice with Voiceover, and the discussion forum on that topic proved particularly useful on that occasion as it confirmed I wasn't just imagining things.

What about having several people here who are great with using iOS and they can check if they can reproduce the bugs we report and send an email to apple accessibility. I still think the best thing is letting those news magazines such as 9 to 5, apple insider those who report on testing iOS in youtube about issues we have. If someone here knows a local news person letting them know so maybe they can make report and who knows. Reporting bugs is great but if they are going to take their time and only fix those that sighted people report first, we need more.

We could try that, Imean contact mac roomers etc. I follow them and am open to contacting them about these bugs which are now by the way fixed. I'm running ios 13.2.3 here and it's rock solid.

KE7ZUM,

Thanks for the offer, but your credibility is sstill shot after your comments that iOS 13.0 was bug free and even if there had been bugs that Apple would fix them with a day 1 update.

I guess that this also puts a big question mark on your claim that 13.2 will be rock solid.

In fact, why are you even on this thread when you routinely claim that there are no bugs in Apple's software?

I now can't remember what it is, but report it and xsee what they say. Email accesibility@appple.com and submit a sis diagnose file. Also make sure if you can the bug is at least 1-2 pages in length. Apple really loves the details.

how do you submit sistem diagnose files on ios mac or apple watch? I report bugs to apple comstantly, but haven't figured out how to send a sistem diagnose

sarah, why do you say the most absolute dumbest things. not everyone can report as you can, so instead of being stupid and saying dumb things, how about explaining how to do your stupid reports like you expect them.

Hi all,

Please remember that posting personal insults towards other members of the community goes against our forum guidelines and thus will not be tolerated on AppleVis.